Alerting Shaping points vs. Via points?

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Alerting Shaping points vs. Via points?

Post by Peobody »

Edit: I just made a significant edit to this post because my first attempt was really bad.

Typically, the daily BaseCamp planned routes of my trips include a starting VP, a lodging end VP, coffee, lunch, fuel(2) and tourist VPs. These will be intermingled with additional directional VPs and SPs.
What would happen if all planned stops were alerting SPs instead of VPs?
If all of these are true...
  • They can be named appropriately.
  • The XT would route us to them but not be insistent that we "visit" them.
  • They would not be added to the Saved or Favourite list right.
...then the downsides I see are...
  • You can not navigate directly to an alerting SP.
  • You would lose the properties of the planned stops that could be POI VPs.
  • Special consideration about appropriateness for group ride (shared route).
These downsides are mostly irrelevant to how I travel. What are your thoughts? (eg: What am I not thinking of?)

Also, are there circumstance where shaping point created using the Insert tool or Alt+drag will sometimes be created as alerting and other times as non-alerting? I have a mixture of them but don't remember changing any shaping points to not alert.
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Re: Alerting Shaping points vs. Via points?

Post by lkraus »

Are you proposing a new type of shaping point? Currently, the only alerting point is a via point. A shaping point is always non-alerting.

Half the value of a shaping point is that it keeps me on preferred roads without constantly announcing the point, so I don't see the need for an alerting shaping point.

Shaping points already have names that I can change, and I can make them via points if I feel a need to hear alerts or if I want to make one a point of entry to a route.

Drag a route to a spot between intersections and Basecamp creates a new via point.

Drag a route to an intersection and Basecamp creates a new shaping point. These usually work well but they are not good candidates for conversion to via points if the route requires a turn at the intersection. The announcement of arrival at the point overrides the turn instructions. If I think that might be a possibility, I consider placing the shaping points at the previous and/or next through-intersection.

I don't explicitly use the Insert command, just drag-n-drop. Under Edit>Options>Edit Options both checkboxes are empty, so I don't need the Alt key to move a route. Just drag the route with the Hand (Pan) tool.
Last edited by lkraus on 15 May 2023 03:34, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Alerting Shaping points vs. Via points?

Post by Peobody »

My vision is to replace via points with shaping points. As it stand now, when select coffee, fuel, lunch, and sight-seeing stops I search for them and then add them to the route. What If I replaced those via points with alerting shaping points placed on the road at those location, maybe slightly up-route? Would all of the issues associated with via points on the XT be avoided?

There are obvious limitations, like when a POI is down a street that you wouldn't travel unless going to that POI, but those are exceptions for me.
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Re: Alerting Shaping points vs. Via points?

Post by lkraus »

I don't think you are going to convince Garmin to create a new type of shaping point.
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Re: Alerting Shaping points vs. Via points?

Post by Peobody »

It doesn't need to be a new shaping point. I am just thinking about the ramifications of replacing via points with alerting points. Below is an example where I have replaced a lunch stop at the POI via point Badin Lake Family Restaurant with an alerting shaping point named Badin Lake Family Restaurant. The coordinates of this POI via point may not be off-road enough that the XT would force me to skip if I didn't pull in but usually they are. This problem is alleviated with the alerting shaping point. The XT will route me to it but won't care if I bypass it and continue on the route.
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Re: Alerting Shaping points vs. Via points?

Post by Rofor »

In my opinion and after my experiences - if you turn an shaping point to 'alert on arrival' you change the shaping point to a via point! You than MUST drive to that point or skip it it with the 'Skip' button, i've done this many times...

For example i use this when planning routes for both of us, my wife and myself - i know, that she can drive about 330km with her Street Triple and when we are on a route which is longer than that, i search for a gas station around 300km and set a shaping point just 500m before and turn 'alert on arrival' on by this point, just to 'not miss' the 'last' gas station for her. When riding, this point will be shown on the map as an orange flag and the approach will be signaled on the upper bar of the Zumo XT and by a tone when audio is enabled. This point behaves and already is a via point - it's not a Waypoint, as it doesn't be added to your 'Favorites'.

You can try this on the Zumo XT with a 'Simulation' just for proof...
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Re: Alerting Shaping points vs. Via points?

Post by Peobody »

I can't test the affect of a missed alerting shaping point in simulation mode so I need to remember to do a real world test.

Something I noticed after my last post is that I have a combination of alerting and non-alerting shaping points sprinkled throughout the BaseCamp routes of my upcoming trip. Prior to this discussion I had assumed that all shaping points were non-alerting but I now appears that they can get created as alerting or non-alerting. I would appreciate enlightenment on what condition(s?) cause them to be one or the other upon creation.

I was a no-shaping-points guy before creating these routes. All points were added using the New Waypoint tool. I would then selectively change some of them to non-alerting. These recent routes included my attempt at using more shaping points but I fear that I don't have an understanding of the end result. I don't have time to change them all but that doesn't overly concern me, I'll figure it out. I just hope to better understand shaping points before planning my next trip.
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Re: Alerting Shaping points vs. Via points?

Post by Fxwheels »

It is simple as this - shaping points are none-alerting. Via points are alerting. You may not even notice a shaping point on the XT. It will be a blue dot on the route and won't be announced. Via point a yellow flag on your route as you may know will always be announced, and if you placed it a bit off route, it will try to turn you back to it until the pop-up message ask if you want to skip it (Y/N). You should of known it if you used all via points before. And, you can move all via and shaping points in Basecamp by dragging them, or create new ones by dragging the route line between them. After that double click on the route in left lower box and set to via or shaping points each one (alert or none-alert). Or group by choosing few of them and using shift+right click.
I don't have any waypoints or favorites. Have no use for those.

As for your first post - Garmin Nuvi 1490 does exactly that. It creates announcing shaping points. They marked as flags too, they will announce your next point, yet will not insist on going there. If you pas it, it forgets about it and concentrate on the next one. If you start the rout not from the start - it will take you to the nearest magenta line entry (no XT "tricks"). But you cant start from a particular via point. 1490 doesn't create tracks, but it shows the route you rode on. Garmin doesn't make it no longer, but you can get if off ebay for $25. I have it always as a backup cas although it's simple, I know It will always take me on my route if the XT or 396 will be acting up.
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Re: Alerting Shaping points vs. Via points?

Post by lkraus »

There are via points, which alert.
There are shaping points, which do not alert.

There are no shaping points which alert.
There are no via points that do not alert.

If you change the alert status, you change the type of point.
Peobody wrote: 14 May 2023 23:31 Something I noticed after my last post is that I have a combination of alerting and non-alerting shaping points sprinkled throughout the BaseCamp routes of my upcoming trip. Prior to this discussion I had assumed that all shaping points were non-alerting...
That is correct.
but I now appears that they can get created as alerting or non-alerting. I would appreciate enlightenment on what condition(s?) cause them to be one or the other upon creation.
Initially, points created through drag-n-drop or the Insert tool are alerting via points when placed between intersections. Placed in intersections, they are non-alerting shaping points. As I said earlier, don't place a shaping point in an intersection involving a turn.
I was a no-shaping-points guy before creating these routes. All points were added using the New Waypoint tool. I would then selectively change some of them to non-alerting. These recent routes included my attempt at using more shaping points but I fear that I don't have an understanding of the end result. I don't have time to change them all but that doesn't overly concern me, I'll figure it out. I just hope to better understand shaping points before planning my next trip.
I often have no waypoints on my routes, or only one or two. Creating waypoints, adding them to a route, getting them in the correct order, having them clutter up my Saved/Favorites - no thanks. I never use them to force a route to preferred roads.

It might help to review @jfheath's guide at the top of the forum, especially the trip planning methods starting on app.php/ZXT-P16. On page 19 (app.php/ZXT-P19) he has ideas to deal with the "optional" off-route coffee stop. I like the method of placing a via point in the road before the turn off to the coffee shop (name the point "Right 4 java" or something like that), followed by another via point that I would pass through with or without coffee. The shop itself would be a shaping point in between those points that could be ignored without consequence.
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Re: Alerting Shaping points vs. Via points?

Post by jfheath »

Interesting Questions @Peobody

@lkraus has already picked out a lot of mis-understandings. I'll try to fill in the gaps.

There are Waypoints and there are non-Waypoints.

Waypoints have to be created before you use them in a route either by you with the flag tool or by somebody else (eg by Garmin).
A Waypoint will appear in a route as either alerting - Via Point - (which is the default) or as non alerting - Shaping Point.
Waypoints get transferred to the Zumo and are added to the 'Favourites' or 'Saved' store.
Waypoints will appear in Basecamps lower left window pane along with the routes and tracks.

Non-Waypoints are usually created when you use the New Route Tool or the Insert Tool.
Non-Waypoints will appear in the route as either alerting (Via) or non-alerting (Shaping). They have to be one or the other.

When using the route tool or the drag and drop Insert tool - you click the place where you want the route to pass through.
The result will be either a Via Point or a Shaping Point.

This behaviour is difficult to predict - because if you click somewhere near to a known / named location, Basecamp will assume that you meant to click on that point, and jump to it. Even if the place isn't showing on the map. This is why you often get locations on your route which are supermarkets or petrol stations. As a sweeping generalisation, known locations - ie places that Basecamp has already named - are placed in the route as alerting (Via) points. Places without a name are set initially as non-alerting (Shaping) points.

It is difficult to know whether a point was set created initially as a Waypoint. And to a large extent is doesn't matter. The only sure-fire way of knowing in Basecamp is that Waypoints appear in the lower left pane in Basecamp for the currently selected List or List Folder.
In the example below Most points have been create as Waypoint. Only the start, end and a couple of coffee stop options (at 28 miles and 59 miles) are set as Via Points - in this case to flag up as route markers for the Pillion to see progress to known landmarks.

BC Lower Left Window.jpg
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When points are added to the route, they acquire a symbol.

BC Points.jpg
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These seem to be related to the size of a town (green circles), or a particular type of venue. Mostly the named points are set as Vias. The small black dots (typically road numbers) are set as Shaping. I have also seen slightly larger black squares - I can't recall when these crop up. None of these are Waypoints in this route.

Because of the point jumping to a nearby location, it is difficult to predict whether an inserted route point will be a Via or a Shaping when it is first placed.
I like to have mainly shaping points with a few Vias - usually placed on the road I want to be on after a coffee Stop - so I highlight all of them in the route properties dialogue box - except start and end - right click and choose 'Don't alert on Arrival'. That sets them all to Shaping points.
(You cannot change the start and finish to shaping points. They have to be Via Points.)

Then I go through and set each point that I want to be a Via back to alert on Arrival. These have to be done individually - you cannot multiselect items that are not adjacent in the list.

There are a few common errors in posts that you read.

Using the term Waypoint to mean any route point. This is becoming more common since MyRoute App has taken off as a popular mapping program. MRA uses the term Waypoint to mean any point on a route. But this is a Zumo Users Forum - Garmin. And Garmin uses the term Waypoint to mean a previously saved location. Garmin Waypoints have additional properties, like address, phone number which are all picked up by the Zumos and can be used to place a call, for example.

Using the term Waypoint to Mean Via Point. I often see phrases like 'I changed it from a Waypoint to a Shaping Point' - which doesn't make sense. Once a Waypoint, always a waypoint. But you can use it as a Via Point in a route or as a Shaping Point in a route, and how you use it can be altered.

When I got the XT - my use of Favourites / Waypoints changed.

I had got used tot he fact that I could name my route points to be anything that I wanted - so I could use something that I recognised. Particularly in places that I didn't know very well. eg for me, Skipton, Kirkby Lonsdale, Penrith, Alston, Longtown, Moffatt, Dunoon, Inverary, Fort William form a perfectly logical natural progression. But I need to look at a map for names that I have heard of like Chippenham, Warminster, Andover, Marlborough, Oxford, Newbury, Reading. If I was in Newbury, I don't have a clue which town is next travelling west.

So I put day numbers (to make them easier to find on the Zumo, and becasue I may go tot he same place twice on different days), and either mileage or sequence numbers so that I can see which comes next. So 03 123 Longtown, 03 164 Moffatt.

Except the XT has scuppered this little ploy, because one of the first things that it does when trransferring or loading in a route is use the lat/long coordinates to find the nearest place in its database, and substitutes that. So my convenient numbering system has gone. I'm stuck in Newbury having to restart my route, and I havn't got a clue which comes next. I need a map.

Except - not if I use Waypoints. It never renames a Waypoint.

So I've started keeping waypoints on Basecamp. And clearing out my favourites from the Zumo for every trip, and just transferring what I need.
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