Questions about waypoints with multiple categories

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Peobody
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Questions about waypoints with multiple categories

Post by Peobody »

I have some waypoints with two categories assigned to them yet they only show up in one of the categories on the XT. What benefits are there to listing multiple categories?

My intended usage was to assign a trip code as one category and then assign another category called "Favs" for physical places that I may want to visit again. I then hoped to be able to delete those assigned only the trip code at the end of the trip. This does not appear possible due to the single listing mentioned above and because the search function does not include the category field. There must be a usefulness to multiple categories that I don't see.

<Begin Rant> The saving of all waypoints as Favourites by the XT really bugs me. They should be saved as such only if flagged as such otherwise they should be stored separately and deleted when no longer associated with a route in internal storage. Cluttering up Favourites with street addresses, fuel stations, hotels, restaurants, etc. that I will never visit again is absurd. <End Rant>
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Re: Questions about waypoints with multiple categories

Post by rbentnail »

Peobody wrote: 24 May 2022 13:35 <Begin Rant> The saving of all waypoints as Favourites by the XT really bugs me. They should be saved as such only if flagged as such otherwise they should be stored separately and deleted when no longer associated with a route in internal storage. Cluttering up Favourites with street addresses, fuel stations, hotels, restaurants, etc. that I will never visit again is absurd. <End Rant>
I feel ya! Both my previous devices- 595 & nuvi 780- did the same thing. Filling Favorites (or Saved Places) is an ignorant way to do it, especially if the don't show on the device when I ride within 1/2 mile of one.
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Re: Questions about waypoints with multiple categories

Post by TripleThreat719 »

This is part of the reason why I like the Explore Website and app. Waypoints and tracks can be saved in collections. You can choose to display collections on the map, or not. Thus eliminating the cluttering of the screen when you are not engaged in things that relate to that collection.
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Re: Questions about waypoints with multiple categories

Post by sussamb »

You can do the same in BaseCamp with folders and lists
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Re: Questions about waypoints with multiple categories

Post by jfheath »

We have here another example of Garmin using the same word to mean two slightly different things.

There are the Categories in the Category App on the Where To ? page - which seem to be more like Points of Interest.
And there are the categories that can be assigned to Waypoints - on the XT in the 'Saved' or 'Favourites' App on the Where To ? Page.

I don't think you can use categories if Explore is enabled. Collections with Explore does more or less the same thing, but in a different way.

Waypoint Categories in Basecamp

Waypoint Categories are more easily assigned using Basecamp. You can select a number of waypoints from the lower left Window - and this is made easier if you have the waypoint (flag) filter selected at underneath the window - and I will pasue for a minute while you look to see what I am talking about and mutter the phrase 'Ah, so that's what they are for'

(short pause)

And then you can right click on the titems that are selected, and select 'Open' from the pop up menu.
The usual dialog box open up, but alongside the Name it simply says '9 items selected' - or however many items it was for you.

Click the 'Categories' at the top, and you can assign any number of categories. You don't need to know them - make them up for yourself.
TYpe each one in the edit box at the bottom, and click 'Add Category'
Add as many as you want.

No need to close the box down, go to the list and select a few more. The contents of the window changes to refelct the current selection. It will show the categories that ALL of the selected items belong to. It wont show categories that just some of the the selected Waypoints belong to.

So for example - I have 60+ waypoints for two long trips, all of them taken in 2021. One trip was to Scotland, one to Wales. Most of the route points I first created as Waypoints, because many of the places were new to me and I know that the XT will not always retain the names that I give to route points, unless I first create them as a Waypoint. I name them with a day number and a mileage.
So for example on 8th June I had a Waypoint at a tiny village in Derbyshire I called it 08 063 Hayfield.
I put this waypoint into 3 categories - 2021; Wales; Day 08

So I was able to do this very quickly in Basecamp. I had a folder for the Wales trip, a folder for the Scotland trip, with lists for each separate day. I was then able to select the Wales trip, set the filter to sho just the Waypoints, select them all and assign every point to two categories 2021 and Wales. I then when through each of the days and set the waypoints for to belong to Day 08, Day 09 etc

Categories 1.jpg

Then did the same for Scotland. It took maybe 5 minutes.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Transfer GPX Waypoints files to the XT

I exported the selected Waypoints for Wales to a GPX file called Wales 2021 WP.gpx and the Scotland ones to a file called Scotland WP 2021.gpx - then transferred them to Internal Storage/GPX on the XT. The waypoints will be transferred with the route anyway, but I don't believe that you can reimport them from the route if you delete them from the XT. Not sure -I observed this a couple of times but that may have been a separate issue to do with temp.gpx being over-written.

I've attached these files so that you can see what happens in Basecamp. Theres nothing special about these points. Just a collection of route points for my routes and some places that I stopped at. Most of them were set as shaping points - but they all retained the name that I gave them.

It might be a good idea to remove all existing Waypoints from the XT first, having kept the ones that you need. Becasue loading these will really clutter up your Favourites / saved locations.

When you restart Basecamp, these route points should import automatically.
They appear in the Where To ? Page under either Favourites or Saved - depending on your language settings.

Once loaded in, the Where To? ->Favourites list will look different - headed by 'All Favourites' which shows the familiar menu.
Underneath are all of the categories that have been entered. 2021, Day 02, etc Choose any one and it will display just the Waypoints that were assigned to that category. No others. This makes it easy to find them should you want to. Note that most of tmy waypoint belong to three caegories. They will appear in three different lists.

This does not make it easier to delete them though. When you select the 3 bar menu, you can opt to delete favourites, and it lists all of the favourites on the XT. You can select all - but leave one unticked.

But I put the favourites for each tour in 2 separate gpx files in Internal storage - so you can delete the lot and re-import the ones that you want. Eg the Wales Waypoints or the Scotland Waypoints. That does make it easier !

When you no longer require them on the XT, you can delete the file containing just the Waypoints from Internal Storage.

Problem Encountered if you delete all of the Favourites / Saved on the XT

If you have no Waypoints in Favourites/Saved, it will not let you import any. It says there aren't any. It is lying.

To remedy this. View the map and tap on it somewhere. You may need to tap it a second time to get a flag in the position that you tapped. The name that it has assigned to this point is shown at the bottom the screen.
It doesn't matter what it is. Tap on the name. Click 'Save'. This will add that point as a Favourite.

You can now reimport the waypoints from any of the waypoint files that you have saved in Internal Storage/GPX. They suddenly become visible again. I told you that it was lying !

Using the XT to view, assign, edit and remove categories.

Where To? -> Favourites -> Select your waypoint -> click the (i) information button.

This shows the point on the map and displays information incluidng Catergories on the left hand side. Click the 3 bar menu and Edit. Here you can change the name, the categories, the map symbol. There is no way to edit multiple saved waypoints at once.
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Re: Questions about waypoints with multiple categories

Post by Peobody »

Thanks jfheath. I can't imagine the effort required for you to produce such detailed responses. I am truly grateful.

This discussion is definitely about categories in waypoints and not the Category App. I had figured out most of processes that you described. The transferring of waypoints to the XT using a .GPX file is new though. I have two questions about it.
1. In your explanation you don't say how you transfer the route to the XT so I am curious about that.
2. When the route is imported by the XT, what happens to its waypoints? Are they not added to Saved Places on the XT because that are identified duplicates as a result of the .GPX files?

On a side but related note. Based on your example it doesn't appear that you don't subscribe to the 'one route per day' convention. I always have so an upcoming trip is made up of 14 routes. When I transfer trips like these to the XT, shorter ones will get all trips transferred to internal storage, longer ones will get all routes transferred to the SD card. Each night I will deleted that days trip from the XT and import the next day from the SD card. I do this while trying to keep around 12 local loop rides on the XT for future use. At the end of a multi-day trip I delete the routes from the XT but have many unwanted waypoints in Saved Places and no way to clean that up. The waypoint .GPX file approach seems like a lot of work when there is one route per day. Having to wipe the XT of routes and Saved Places just to clean up Saved Places makes me angry. Perhaps a rethink of the 'one route per day' convention is in order once I better understand the benefit of transferring waypoints via a .GPX file.
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Re: Questions about waypoints with multiple categories

Post by jfheath »

Peobody wrote: 25 May 2022 14:11 Thanks jfheath. I can't imagine the effort required for you to produce such detailed responses. I am truly grateful.

This discussion is definitely about categories in waypoints and not the Category App. I had figured out most of processes that you described. The transferring of waypoints to the XT using a .GPX file is new though. I have two questions about it.
Peobody wrote: 25 May 2022 14:11 1. In your explanation you don't say how you transfer the route to the XT so I am curious about that.
Transferring routes to Internal Storage - the Waypoints are included in the route, and they are imported automatically on transfer. The routes get put in temp.gpx - but a new temp.gpx file is created if the USB cable has just been connected, so any old transferred data is lost - ie the routes are no longer available to import. I use this method more than any other - I just make sure that if I have to add anything to my routes, I transfer everything again.

Transferring routes to the SD card is done in the same way, in Basecamp but it does not involve temp.gpx, and any waypoints are not automatically added to Favourites/Saved. The resulting gpx files - route/waypoints can be imported again and again - which means that everything can be deleted from the XT list of favourites, routes in Trip planner and tracks in the track app - and can be re-imported. Subject to that waypoint glitch I mentioned. There has to be at least on in internal memory for the XT to find the rest to import.

I described creating a GPX file of just the waypoints as a method that could be adopted for this particular question. You can name the file what you want and that makes it easier to get rid of any waypoints that you no longer need. You delete just the one file. You still have to remove them from those available from favourites, but that can be done on the XT screen. Delete all of them, delete the gpx file that you don't want and reimport the ones you do.
It is worthwhile considering this method, because having created a gpx file, you can then email to you smartphone, let drive pick it up when you open the email, and it places it in the GPX folder on the XT. No need to attach the USB cable.

I empty my XT before any tour and just load it witht he stuff that I want. Transfer it all to Internal storage, and make sure that I don't transfer odd bits after that - otherwise temp.gpx gets overwritten. I find it essential to be able to reimport the original route - becasue if you make changes to the currently active route - it changes the imported copy. The only way you can get back to the original is if it is there to reimport.
Peobody wrote: 25 May 2022 14:11 2. When the route is imported by the XT, what happens to its waypoints? Are they not added to Saved Places on the XT because that are identified duplicates as a result of the .GPX files?
I checked this again after writing the last essay above. If you import the same waypoint either sent as part of a route or sent as a separate GPX file
Peobody wrote: 25 May 2022 14:11
On a side but related note. Based on your example it doesn't appear that you don't subscribe to the 'one route per day' convention. I always have so an upcoming trip is made up of 14 routes. When I transfer trips like these to the XT, shorter ones will get all trips transferred to internal storage, longer ones will get all routes transferred to the SD card. Each night I will deleted that days trip from the XT and import the next day from the SD card. I do this while trying to keep around 12 local loop rides on the XT for future use. At the end of a multi-day trip I delete the routes from the XT but have many unwanted waypoints in Saved Places and no way to clean that up. The waypoint .GPX file approach seems like a lot of work when there is one route per day. Having to wipe the XT of routes and Saved Places just to clean up Saved Places makes me angry. Perhaps a rethink of the 'one route per day' convention is in order once I better understand the benefit of transferring waypoints via a .GPX file.
I've somehow given the wrong impression. I arrange my trips by day. Mainly one per day - but I'm an experienced fell walker and trainer and I always plan escape routes. Our rider/pillion limit is getting to be about 150 miles a day, although we know that we can do 350 if we really need to.
So I put a 100 mile radius around the point that we stay and then plot a 150 mile scenic route. We know then that we can take a much shorter route if the weather looks to be attrocious.

The point is that I might have two or three alternative routes for each day.

I create a Basecamp folder for the entire trip - eg Scotland 2022. In there I create a list for every day. I add the waypoints - the last one accurately placing the bike where I need to park - and build the route from that. The last thing that I do is rename the waypoints with the date of the month and a mileage. Habit. I don't find the mileage necesssary in the UK, but if we are in Europe I don't know where anything is in relation to anywhere else - and having that information if my XT route throws a wobbler is invaluable. I can reconstruct the route from the favourites and know which day and which order they should be in from their name. (I use proper waypoints because the XT will likely rename any point that wasn't created as a waypoint).

So in Basecamp I can click on a day list, and see everything related to that day. I can click on the Scotland 2022 list folder and see the entire route, tracks and waypoints. (I make a track for each route, and they get stored in the list associated with each day.)

Then the final trick - which I started doing because the 595 organises trips by date showing the soonest trip at the top of the list - relegating the older trips to the bottom of the list. The XT doesn't do that, but oddly, if you give the start point a departure date and time, the XT still sorts them in chronological order.

And they all stay in the Zumo for the entire trip.

Then (as often happens), someone at the hotel is struggling with their satnav, I can demonstrate stuff, delete stuff, and it is still all there ready to import again.

We haven't had many long trips with the XT, due to Covid. I won't use categories myself - too much effort for not enough gain for me. I thought Explore's Collections was a neat idea - but the same applies: its a lot of effort for littel reward - 'cos you end up with everything turned on and your screen becomes a mess of waypoints, routes and tracks.

I think that I will probably resort to your technique of deleting the trip once I have finished it because I can always import it again if I need to. The waypoints - well, they don't bother me, because I rarely look at the Where To? Favourites lists when I am on a tour. The idea is to be able to get on to the bike, turn on the ignition and be ready to set off . I don't want the pillion getting fed up while I fiddle with that. I have the data display showing time and distance to the next Via Point and to the destination. Those are arranged to be just after the coffee stops.

I think Garmin's idea of a trip (judging by the Trip Planner App in BAsecamp) was to have a multiday trip, with a destination plotted at the end of each day. But that would really grind down the processing for a 2-3000 mile trip. I did try it that way, and I have to say, if that is what the intention was, I really don't know what the planners had been on the night before.

I think one route (and track) per day is the way to use it. But its what works for you that matters.

John

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Re: Questions about waypoints with multiple categories

Post by Peobody »

I understand your approach. I am reassured now.

The biggest thing you have confirmed is that it is fruitless to maintain local routes and associated waypoints in internal storage while doing a multi-day trip. It is going to be best to clean the slate on the XT before loading it with the trip routes, and then clean it again once the trip is done.

One thing I wonder is if I might have screwed myself by planning my 14 routes with only fuel, food, POI, and hotel waypoints as proper waypoints. The rest are ad-hoc shaping points. What I think I will do is come up with a naming convention for the proper waypoints that will identify the day and the type (fuel stop one, fuel stop two, coffee, lunch, POI, or hotel). I can then easily identify them in the Where to? Saved list should I need to.

Thanks again.
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