XT not following planned route

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jfheath
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Re: XT not following planned route

Post by jfheath »

Thanks for the comments and the Video demonstration @Fennellg. Very nicely done.

But in your written explanation there are a lot of things that Garmin users will find confusing.

So please excuse some comments.
Fennellg wrote: 08 Jul 2021 01:12 There are 2 ways to get routes to stay on route. Use Google MY Maps to make a route. Export to KMZ format. It’s now a track. Open Base Camp. Import the KMZ file. Right click and convert it from a track to a route.
A good concise description. Personally I am not a fan of using Google maps, but I know that a lot of people are, so this is very helpful.
Fennellg wrote: 08 Jul 2021 01:12 It stays pinned down.
Not sure what you mean here - Basecamp will not recalculate it. If it is transferred to the Zumo the Zumo should not recalculate it - but you have to make sure that there are non of the check boxes ticked in Edit -> Options -> Device transfer. Also that the map on Basecamp is the identical version to the map on the Zumo. Otherwise the route will recalculate when the Zumo receives it. With nothing else to keep it in place, it will likely result in a Faster time route.
Fennellg wrote: 08 Jul 2021 01:12 Tracks have a lot of shaping points.There are only 2 waypoints. The start and end.
I know what you mean - but being pedantic, tracks do not have any shaping points or Via Points or Waypoints. They have only track points.
(I know this sounds to be nit-picking but that isn't my intention. In Garmin Speak, those three types of points have very particular meanings, and they behave differently when navigating with the Zumo. Track points are just a dots on the map, joined together to appear as a curvy line.)

The route that you get when converting the track to a route doesn't have any shaping points either. On the video the original route on MyMaps has a load of Waypoints. Although the waypoints are transferred to Basecamp and they are shown on the map, the waypoints do not form a part of the route itself - so they cannot be made into Via Points which will alert you as you approach and arrive. Neither can they be used for the data display on the Zumo screen to give distance to Via or time to Via.

Instead, the route consists of what Garmin refer to as GPX Route Point Extensions. I call them ghost points. You cannot see them on the map, but you can see them if you load the gps file into a text editor. They are points which form the shape of the route between pairs of shaping / via points. Or in this case between the start and the end. They are the things that ensure that when a route is transferred to the Zumo, the Zumo receives exactly the same magenta line as was produced in Basecamp. And this will remain as long as the Zumo does not recalculate it. If the route is allowed to recalculate, all of these points are lost and replaced with ones which define a newly calculated section of the route. In this case the whole route will change from the original that you had in MyMaps.
Fennellg wrote: 08 Jul 2021 01:12 You can add extra in BaseCamp but be advised, if you skip one it will cause trouble, trying to make you go back to the waypoint you skipped. I avoid using them.
If you add a Waypoint into a route, it can be defined as either a Via Point or a Shaping point. You can add such points without them having been Waypoints. In MyMap, you can add new destinations. They get passed to Basecamp as Waypoints. Any place where you simply click the map in MyMaps is not passed to Basecamp at all.

'Skip' is an option on the later Zumos that allows the next shaping point or via point to be removed from a route - so that you don't have to visit it. If it is 'Skipped' in this way, the stanav will never take you abck to it. It has gone from the Zumos list.

However, I suspect that you weren't referring to the skip function that is built into the XT. I suspect that you meant that if you add a route point in Basecamp and you do not visit that point when it is in the Zumo, it will then continue to try to take you back to it.

Yes it will. But Via Points are treated differently from Shaping Points. If you miss out a Shaping Point when riding, yes, the stanav will try to take you back to it, and it will calculate a new route to get you there. But if you ignore the instructions and join the magenta route AFTER the missed point, then the Zumo will continue navigating ahead.
Via Points are not as forgiving. The only way of getting the Zumo to not take you back to the missed Via Point is to press the 'Skip' button. Or better still, not have it there in the first place. Garmin often referes to Via Points as 'Destination'. They treat them as somewhere that you most definitely want to visit. They are not intended to be put in a location simply to pin the route onto a particular road. They can be used for that - but if you do, make sure that they are in a place that you will definitely be riding through.

Fennellg wrote: 08 Jul 2021 01:12 Now if you turn off your recalculate on your GPS and you go off route you can simply go towards the purple line and rejoin your route. Just like the old 550.
As described above - you don't have to turn off recalculate for this to happen on the XT. But int he example you have given, there are no Via Point or shaping points to pin the route to particular roads. All of those flags that you put into MyMaps are no longer there. You have to turn off auto recalculate otherwise the moment that you miss out one of those ghost points - the entire route from your present position gets recalculated.
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Fennellg
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Re: XT not following planned route

Post by Fennellg »

Ok I am not all that concise with my terms. But my two methods work. Been using the Zumos since the 550. Everyone in our group has a different model.. BMW, 395, 595 etc…. And we all landed up with our gps’s making different routes from our master route.

We have finally solved the problem. This is what we do.

1. We turn off all avoidances.
2. We set our gps to fastest route.
3. We use one laptop to load all the gps’s with the route.
4. We use my maps from google or base camp with no avoidances set to fastest time. And we make the route with shaping points.

Doing this has our gps’s all on the same page following the planned route as planned.

Pinned down means the route is followed as planned no changes from the original plan.

I should state that no one in our group has an xt. But I suspect this will work. It is certainly worth a try.
toni
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Re: XT not following planned route

Post by toni »

jfheat, may i ask what is the correct way to start a route then?
(i make my routes in MyRoute)
thanks
jfheath
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Re: XT not following planned route

Post by jfheath »

Thanks @Fennellg .

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the way your group distributes the routes. It makes sense.

Except - combined with the video I can see that there might be an issue with the term 'Shaping Point'. A Shaping point is one that does not alert as you approach and arrive. The maker of the video says that he makes most of his point shaping points except the first and the last and the places where he wants to stop. These he makes to be alerting. These are called Via Points, not shaping points. In fact, most of the points that he created with the insert 'bungee' tool have ended up as Via points. You can tell this from the route list that he displays at the end - Shaping points have a comment after the name indicating that they do not alert on arrival. Most if his do not - which makes them Via Points. You can edit these in the route list that he displays. I am absolutely sure that the author of the video knows this, but he doesn't mention it - to a novice, it gives the impression that dropping points with the insert tool creates just shaping points. it doesn't. it creates both via and shaping points - and it is a bit hit and miss - so they have to be made as you want them ie - alerting or non alerting. (via or shaping)

I do disagree with the notion that it is necessary to put in route points as frequently as he says. And he is completely wrong in stating that the Zumo will not visit shaping points. It will. it visits every shaping point in the order that you tell it to. So to get over the Furka Pass for example, I wouldn't put a point just after where the road starts. I would put it about 1/3 of the way from the start, and maybe another 1/3 from the end.

The problem with putting a route point just after the start of the pass, us that the satnav (which is programmed to take the fastest route), will pop up the road for a few hundred yards, visit the point and then go back to take a faster road. Put one third of the way along the road, it has to do that third distance and to go back it has to do the same distance again. Which usually makes it slower than taking the road you want it to take.

Of course you have to be wary of the satnav taking a short cut by doing this. So a combination of both techniques may be necessary if there are lots of alternative routes available.

The disadvantage of having lots of route points is that if you miss a point - due to road works, diversions, or the point being inaccurately placed according to the map, then the satnav will insist that you go back to it - and the knowing how many route points you have actually missed out, can be a problem if so many are placed close together.

Having shaping points rather than via points helps here. (550, 660 and 665 users ignore this, because they dont have the same type of route Points). If you bypass a shaping point, but rejoin the magenta route further along, then the satnav will continue navigating ahead as if you had visited them. The 660 does this with all of its route points. The 39x, 590, 595 and XT do it with shaping points, but not if you miss out a Via point.

My preference is to have Via points at start, end, and a couple of stopping places. I then try to limit Shaping points to just a handful - say 3 or 4 between Vias. Placed carefully, these usually work well, but sometimes, particularly if there is a motorway nearby, you have to place more simply to stop the satnav jumping onto a faster route. Similarly with roads like the furka pass, it takes a lot of miles to cover a relatively short straight line distance due to the number of hairpins. Again, more route points may be required as the video suggests.

But the necessity to ensure that every single point is accurately placed is described very clearly.

Some points not mentioned, that may catch you out.

If you only have Shaping points in the route, the later zumos 590 / 390 onwards including the XT, will ask you to choose the next destination when you start a route. With only the start and end available to choose from, many have thought that the next destination is the end point. If you do that, the satnav will ignore all of the shaping points and take you on the fastest route to the end.

If you have a lunch break set as a via point, then that via point will appear in the list aling with the start and the end. But again, if you choose the lunch stop as the next destination, the satnav will take you there in the fastest time, and it will ignore all of the shaping point before the lunch stop. It will only start to follow the route after the lunch stop.

The correct answer is to choose the start point. The satnav will navigate you to the start and then continue from that point onwards. perfect.

But now there is a dilemma. The leader roles up first and places his bike on the start point. Other riders arrive and distribute themselves either side of the leaders parked bike. Some are maybe 20m away. Everyone loads the route selects the next destination - the start and all ride off. But half of the riders are having problems. The route isn't behaving. You are following the magenta line, but it keeps telling you to turn off or do a u turn. Why. because that half if the group were parked in front of the leader, and when they set off, they didn't pass through the start point. So the satnav is trying to take them to it . And it will do this for the rest of the route.

it always helps to have the start plotted well up the road from where you get on your bike. Select the start and the satnav will take you to it, and then navigate the route from there.

For 660 users, load the route, but do not start it. instead wait until you pass the start and then hit go. The 550 requires something similar, but I can't remember the details. it has been a long time since I had my hands on a 550.

Now - to answer @toni 's question.

He uses My Route App. This is bound to create problems. MRA has only recently introduced the idea of via points and shaping points for Zumo users. It will export two types of gpx file - v1.1 and v1.0. One of these creates a route with only alerting via points. Ine creates a route with only non-alerting shaping points. Neither of these are of much use to users of the 395, 396, 590, 595 and XT.
There is currently a version available for export for Zumos. It is a variety of v1.1 currently in Beta testing. This is the one that you need for the. XT, and the person creating the route needs to know how the via and shaping points behave on the zumos.

One final point. If you use Closest Entry Point, then I have noticed odd behaviour at seemingly random times resulting in ridiculously ling routes to get to a point on the original. Sometimes well over 100 miles. This behaviour seems to be prevented if U turns are allowed.
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toni
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Re: XT not following planned route

Post by toni »

I just got back from a 2900kms voyage splitted in 6 routes from about 350kms each and 1 from 800kms.
these where made in "myroute".
i spoke to my shopkeeper about these things, his advise, load the route as a track then convert into a route, no u turns no recalculate.
i added extra points to minimise the posibility to be rerouted and took a paper map to be on the save side
this was done to a zumo xt, a zumo 396 and an older one
first we tried to start the route as a "route" wich didn t work very well, then we started the track choosing "next point of entry", this worked very well on all 3 devices.
neither of us had a problem on the entire trip
at one point we had to leave the route for an hotel, the next day i entered "next point of entry" and we got there without any issues
hope this is helpful
Fxwheels
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Re: XT not following planned route

Post by Fxwheels »

toni wrote: 29 Sep 2021 08:42 this was done to a zumo xt, a zumo 396 and an older one
at one point we had to leave the route for an hotel, the next day i entered "next point of entry" and we got there without any issues
hope this is helpful
You said that someone had the 396. Is the "next point of entry" available there? I haven't seen it.
jfheath
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Re: XT not following planned route

Post by jfheath »

The XT can follow a track. ie it will display the track on the screen and will give an ETA, but it will issue no instructions. It will however inform you how far you are from the track if you deviate, and indicate the general direction to the closest point on the track with a straight dotted lind, should you deviate from it.

The XT will also convert a track to a 'trip'. An odd term given the way that the XT uses the term trip in other contexts. But what you actually get is a route which the XT will navigate giving turn by turn directions, which it will never recalculate. It has no Via Points or Shaping Points, but apart from that, it behaves just like the routes that can be run on the 660s, 590s and 390s. It is a very impressive combination a route and a track. It stays put, never recalculates and issues turn by turn directions.

Which is very nice.

What is really interesting is what happens if you wander away from the magenta line. It does something similar to what happens when you navigate a track - in that it finds the closest point on the original magenta line and calculates a course to take you to that point. It looks as though it is recalculating the entire route, but it isn't.

As soon as you leave the original route, it will try to get you to u-turn back to it.
As you continue to ignore it, it finds a better way - but it is not heading for a shaping point or a via point somewhere up ahead. it is heading for the point in the original route that is closest to your current position.

So if you have gone off route because a new bypass has been built, you may be running roughly parallel to the original route, and the most efficient route would be to travel to the end of the bypass and meet up 3 miles ahead. But the original route is just half a mile to your right, so it will always try to find a route to get you back to that. And it will continue to do that until you eventually join up with the original magenta line.

Which is brilliant, providing you realise that this is what it is doing, otherwise it seems to be recalculating new routes that take you away from where you are heading. Unlike a normal route which would try to take you to a destination by the shortest or fastest route to a fixed point, This is trying to find the quickest way to the route that you should be on - and as you move, does the point that it is trying to take you to.

Try it. Find a bypass, make a track of the route, load to the XT, convert to a trip and navigate it. But deliberately go the wrong way. Now you know what it is doing, it will be obvious. But if you came across this for the first time on a tour, having been told that it does not recalculate, it takes some working out what it is actually trying to do - because it looks to be recalculating a route and taking you at 90 degrees to the direction you want to be travelling.

I haven't yet tried this with auto recalculate turned off. Maybe it plots a straight dotted line to the closest point - like it does with a track ?
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moto-m
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Re: XT not following planned route

Post by moto-m »

That is very interesting and incredibly useful information that you have discovered - thank you for describing how this works - I don't think that I would ever have found this out on my own and it will be extremely helpful to me.
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Re: XT not following planned route

Post by Fxwheels »

jfheath wrote: 18 Oct 2021 05:08 it finds the closest point on the original magenta line and calculates a course to take you to that point.
Is it a case in 396 too? I think it will ask you for the via point to go to which can be problematic. Haven't experienced with track and route at the same time though, but just route.
Actually, this way of navigating to the nearest magenta line is in my old Nuvi, but looks like they removed it later with the new software and now it's back on the XT as a "new" feature.
jfheath
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Re: XT not following planned route

Post by jfheath »

Fxwheels wrote: 18 Oct 2021 13:28
jfheath wrote: 18 Oct 2021 05:08 it finds the closest point on the original magenta line and calculates a course to take you to that point.
Is it a case in 396 too? I think it will ask you for the via point to go to which can be problematic.
I have never set eyes on a 396 - I've only read the manual. But I have also read the XT manual and it doesn't give away very much information like this.

The 'Select Next Destination' when navigating a 'normal' route is also present on the XT. This isn't what I was referring to though. 'Select Next Destination' is used when starting the kind of route that is constructed with Shaping points and Via points and which either the mapping software or the ZUmo itself has created a magenta line by joining up the dots.

That behaviour of that feature is not 'problematic' as you put it. It is actually very predicatable. But since you made that comment, I suspect that you have missed out on a bit of essentail information.

So here it is:
Whicheve Via point you choose from that list (it only lists Via Points) , the Zumo will get you directly to that selected point by plotting its own route. When it arrives it seamlessly tags on the remainder of your planned route and then follows the planned route from that point onwards. For this to work, effectively, you have to have a few Via Points in your route - otherwise you get a choice of the start and the finish. Nothing else (except closest entry point on the XT)


If you choose the end point - you are stuffed. It will miss out your entire route and find the fastest or shortest way to the end.
If you choose the start point and your bike is 10m away from the point that you plotted - you are also stuffed. It will spend the entire trip trying to get you to go back to the start.
And if you turn off recalculation and U turns, you are well and truly stuffed - because the magenta line that you think you are following is actually the magenta route that is trying to go back the way you have come in order to visit the start that you have not yet visited. And it will make some very odd turns in order to get you to go back without making a U turn.

For this reason, I always put the start of my routes a mile or two away from where I intend to set off from. I make sure it is on the correct road that I will be riding. I then choose the starat point from the list presented to select the Next Destination. It takes me from where I am now to the start of my route and continues as if it was all part of the same route when I arrive.

Most mapping software creates routes with either just shaping points or just via points. Some do not create either. Very few do both types of points that the Zumo uses. MyRouteApp has a beta version that now seems to make the distinction, and which works well. But it doesn't create waypoints that the Zumo will recognise yet. But their beta version is a big step forward for Zumo Users.
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