Shaping points enigma

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AaroninNY
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Re: Shaping points enigma

Post by AaroninNY »

Iris, thanks. I like this approach. I live on a one-way street to it seems like an easy solution to have one point up the street a block or two and one down the street the other way a block or two. After giving time to let the satellites connect I think this will work.

I appreciate everyone's tips here. I wish I had known all these finer points a year ago!
Aaron D., the Bronx, N.Y.
Garmin Zumo 595 LM
2020 Kawasaki W800 & 2015 Yamaha V Star 650 Custom

sussamb
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Re: Shaping points enigma

Post by sussamb »

I do the same, one on either side of my house and select one as the start point depending on which way roughly the route will go. Same if I'm away anywhere.

patrickg450
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Re: Shaping points enigma

Post by patrickg450 »

for thise that have seen my posts in other threads.




This is why I use tracks and NOT routes, no hijacking intended here just frustrated with my 595 and Garmin

rbentnail
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Re: Shaping points enigma

Post by rbentnail »

I'm just now, after 2 yrs, beginning I think to understand some of the finer nuances of the 595. The nuvi 780 I learned with was significantly simpler and more intuitive. I met up the other day with a fellow member and we compared notes and thoughts about what works and some of the seemingly random quirks of the 590 and the 595. We agreed on several things like putting starting points out away from where you are starting and placing shaping (or via or way) points after turns a ways, things like that.

But he said something that's stuck with me. He showed me the relatively huge number of shaping points he uses and asked, "if you remove any one point from your route, will the route change?" And it hit me- more points! What can it hurt? I've started with some routes I've planned for a trip in late July, adding shaping points and more shaping points. I'm not talking about hundreds of points in a 200 mile route but enough to give the 595 no choice but to follow my direction, significantly more than was ever necessary with the old nuvi. And I believe Michael's right- by forcing the 595 to follow my route without change even if I skip or remove a point I can create more repeatable behavior. Time will tell but that issue- unpredictability- is what has me so doubtful of the usefulness of the 595. I keep saying to folks things like "mine doesn't do that. Sometimes" or "that's not how mine works. Sometimes" or "why is my route constantly changing? Sometimes".
Russ B. Zumo 595,
2007 USA Yamaha FJR1300A, 133k and counting

jfheath
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Re: Shaping points enigma

Post by jfheath »

If it works .....

Using a lot of shaping points forces the satnav to follow a particular route. It has no option but to do that as the satnav will always navigate you to the next route point in its list - Via or Shaping.

But having a lot of shaping points in a route can create other issues if you have to deviate from the route for any distance. Satnav will keep trying tot ake you back to the first point that you didn't visit - and that can be confusing.

If you have autorecalculate turned off - Like @Iris thent he stanav goes quiet. It doesn't say anything - until you rejoin the route.
If you have it turned on - like me - it constantly nags to go to the first of any shaping points that you missed - until you rejoin the original route after the missed point.

In both cases - this behaviour assumes that you haven't missed any Via Points.

Having a lot of shaping points means that if for some reason you deviate from the plotted route (eg by accident; you are forced to by road closure; the map is wrong; a new section of road has been laid) - in order to skip the missed points, you have to skip each one separately. Suppose there are 3 missed points that are now behind you. Press skip once and it will remove the next point from its list. There are now two points behind you, so it is still trying to get you to go back - which gives the impression that pressing skip does not work.

But (and I repeat) - providing you have not passed any Via Points, as soon as you rejoin the original route after any missed points, the satnav will continue navigating correctly from that point onwards.

Around the area where @rbentnail lives, there are so many alternative ways of getting from point A to point B. Many of them are roughly the same time or the same distance - eg : go north then east, or: go east then north. There's hardly any difference in time/distance. But the satnavs are becomming traffic aware (eg the XT collects traffic data over the air through its power cable) - or the 590 which uses historic traffic data stored in the map files - or the 595 which has an Optimise Route option. Also, All 3 of them build up a profile of the roads and the kind of roads that you like to drive or ride. The satnav uses this information to change the route to fit in with your preferences.

So drive along at 25mph in a 30mph limit, and the satnav will recalculate your arrival time based on the speed that you are driving along that type of road. It may decide that in order to meet your criterion of 'Fastest Time', you would be better going along a different type of road where historically you ride or drive much closer to the speed limit. Maybe a longer route.

But whatever it does, the satnav will always attempt to get you to the next route point on its list - so the more route points you have, the fewer opportunities it has to chnage your route.


Its nice to see people using the terms Via Point (alerting) and Shaping Point (non alerting) correctly now. Shaping points are much more forgiving if you ignore one of them - but Via points have definite advantages as longa as you place them precisely and you do not intend to miss them out. Best used near coffee stops.

Waypoints. This term is not used by Garmin to describe a point on a route. It is a point that exists - whetehr or not it is part of a route. The Zumo calls these 'favourites'. Something that you have stored in case you want to use them - but you don't have to.

When you do put a Waypoint into a route, it usually becomes a Via Point. But it can be changed to a shaping point. And as far as the satnav is concerend, that is all it needs to know.

Except for one odd feature. When points are added to a route in BAsecamp using the route tool or the Insert tool, they are given a name by Basecamp. You can change that name - but don't expect the Zumo to take any notice of it. Usually the Zumo ignores your new name and uses its own name instead. Not so if the point was created using the Waypoint tool. You can rename those and the Zumo keeps the name that you gave it.

So when the Zumo shows the route list or it displays a message, it uses a the sensible name that you gave it rather than US42213 - referring to one of many points on the road US42.

jfheath
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Re: Shaping points enigma

Post by jfheath »

@AaroninNY (and anyone else who is interested)

Send me a Private Message with your email address, I'll give you a pdf document I have written detailing all sorts of quirks and fixes for the 590 and 595 with Basecamp. Backed up with links to videos to illustrate the issues in the text. Its about 3MB, but that shouldn't be a problem by email.

For your use only - if you don't mind - ie not to be published posted or given to anyone else.

rbentnail
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Re: Shaping points enigma

Post by rbentnail »

jfheath wrote:
28 Jun 2020 07:43
If it works .....

Using a lot of shaping points forces the satnav to follow a particular route. It has no option but to do that as the satnav will always navigate you to the next route point in its list - Via or Shaping.

But having a lot of shaping points in a route can create other issues if you have to deviate from the route for any distance. Satnav will keep trying tot ake you back to the first point that you didn't visit - and that can be confusing.

If you have autorecalculate turned off - Like @Iris thent he stanav goes quiet. It doesn't say anything - until you rejoin the route.
If you have it turned on - like me - it constantly nags to go to the first of any shaping points that you missed - until you rejoin the original route after the missed point.

In both cases - this behaviour assumes that you haven't missed any Via Points.

Having a lot of shaping points means that if for some reason you deviate from the plotted route (eg by accident; you are forced to by road closure; the map is wrong; a new section of road has been laid) - in order to skip the missed points, you have to skip each one separately. Suppose there are 3 missed points that are now behind you. Press skip once and it will remove the next point from its list. There are now two points behind you, so it is still trying to get you to go back - which gives the impression that pressing skip does not work.

But (and I repeat) - providing you have not passed any Via Points, as soon as you rejoin the original route after any missed points, the satnav will continue navigating correctly from that point onwards.

Around the area where @rbentnail lives, there are so many alternative ways of getting from point A to point B. Many of them are roughly the same time or the same distance - eg : go north then east, or: go east then north. There's hardly any difference in time/distance. But the satnavs are becomming traffic aware (eg the XT collects traffic data over the air through its power cable) - or the 590 which uses historic traffic data stored in the map files - or the 595 which has an Optimise Route option. Also, All 3 of them build up a profile of the roads and the kind of roads that you like to drive or ride. The satnav uses this information to change the route to fit in with your preferences.

So drive along at 25mph in a 30mph limit, and the satnav will recalculate your arrival time based on the speed that you are driving along that type of road. It may decide that in order to meet your criterion of 'Fastest Time', you would be better going along a different type of road where historically you ride or drive much closer to the speed limit. Maybe a longer route.

But whatever it does, the satnav will always attempt to get you to the next route point on its list - so the more route points you have, the fewer opportunities it has to chnage your route.


Its nice to see people using the terms Via Point (alerting) and Shaping Point (non alerting) correctly now. Shaping points are much more forgiving if you ignore one of them - but Via points have definite advantages as longa as you place them precisely and you do not intend to miss them out. Best used near coffee stops.

Waypoints. This term is not used by Garmin to describe a point on a route. It is a point that exists - whetehr or not it is part of a route. The Zumo calls these 'favourites'. Something that you have stored in case you want to use them - but you don't have to.

When you do put a Waypoint into a route, it usually becomes a Via Point. But it can be changed to a shaping point. And as far as the satnav is concerend, that is all it needs to know.

Except for one odd feature. When points are added to a route in BAsecamp using the route tool or the Insert tool, they are given a name by Basecamp. You can change that name - but don't expect the Zumo to take any notice of it. Usually the Zumo ignores your new name and uses its own name instead. Not so if the point was created using the Waypoint tool. You can rename those and the Zumo keeps the name that you gave it.

So when the Zumo shows the route list or it displays a message, it uses a the sensible name that you gave it rather than US42213 - referring to one of many points on the road US42.
I totally understand what you're saying about having too many shaping points and perhaps the confusion of having too many points skipped at one time. I think I've anticipated this well enough and placed additional points what I figure are about 10-14 miles apart is the twisties and 18-23 miles apart in the straighter/flatter routes. Often enough to force the 595 to run the route without change but not so often as to become confusing, piled up or a constant nuisance. Time will tell but I'm anticipating much less confusion in my future!

I've never really paid any attention whatever to shaping point names. I've found that I'd rather have a route to and ending at a coffee shop then start a new route from there. Or this would be one of the very few times I would have "flagged" a place with a waypoint flag and used a via point instead. I don't do that often as I'm not all that anal about stopping. We just wing it, choosing stops as we go. Rather than naming routes I'll just number them so going in order is easy to choose regardless of what order the 595 lists them.
Russ B. Zumo 595,
2007 USA Yamaha FJR1300A, 133k and counting

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Re: Shaping points enigma

Post by rbentnail »

So, a couple days ago, nice Saturday, out and about with a couple others for nearly 400 miles. I tested a few things by making my routes with A) more shaping points, B) a couple via points for particular stops and C) known places I was going to bypass a shaping point and re-join the route. I set the RECALCULATE ROUTE to automatic.

The 595 performed flawlessly, as one would expect, with more shaping for guidance. I purposely messed around getting to my first via point after the start point as one might do on a trip for getting gas, coffee, etc. Perfect! And for the next 3 or so hrs that route was flawless to the destination. Bypassing a shaping point and re-joining the route went as expected- seamlessly without having to manually skip that point.

With the second route we encountered some unexpected problems. First a road closure routed us way, way out and back. Problem was I had 2 shaping points on the bypassed section. The 595 did not like this. I had to stop and manually skip both points once back on the route. The confusion I had I think was something mentioned before- it's hard to tell if you've rejoined the route or if you are on the recalculated part trying to send you back. I finally stopped the route and restarted by picking points at random as my next start point over & over until it was where in the route I needed it to be.

This brings up a question- when I create a route I can change the name of the point with right click/Edit Via Point. Is there a way to transfer those name changes along with the route to the 595? I would take the time to change the names to a sequential number because....

The next obstacles popped up. Road closure. No detour, just a big gate closed and locked. So off we go, backtracking. Man oh man the 595 did not like that! Because of the lack of definitive naming of points I could not get it to do well at all. I finally just stopped the route and picked a new destination. And lo! another road closure without a detour! Stop route, pick new destination. We eventually get on the road we want to be on, the original route but the 595 again wants to send us backwards as we have now skipped 4 or 5 points. So again, stop route, start route, pick next destination point to find out it's wrong, repeat.

Overall it worked tho I did expect it to be at least a little more forgiving with the closures. Thankfully I was somewhat familiar with the area so I was able to pick new destinations otherwise we probably would have abandoned the ride altogether.

Any suggestions?
Russ B. Zumo 595,
2007 USA Yamaha FJR1300A, 133k and counting

jfheath
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Re: Shaping points enigma

Post by jfheath »

That is brilliant news.

It sounds like the the earlier tests went according to plan, and the Zumo did exactly as you Expected it to. Road closures ? Theres not much you can do about those, and you did the only things that were available to you. Skip points and stop and recalculate.

I can answer the question you asked - but I will do that tomorrow when I can get to my PC again.

I've just had a response from Garmin - came in just before an email about this post from you. It ties in with one of the questions you asked......

More tomorrow ..00:35 here now.

jfheath
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Re: Shaping points enigma

Post by jfheath »

rbentnail wrote:
07 Jul 2020 21:26
So, a couple days ago, nice Saturday, out and about with a couple others for nearly 400 miles. I tested a few things by making my routes with A) more shaping points, B) a couple via points for particular stops and C) known places I was going to bypass a shaping point and re-join the route. I set the RECALCULATE ROUTE to automatic.

The 595 performed flawlessly, as one would expect, with more shaping for guidance. I purposely messed around getting to my first via point after the start point as one might do on a trip for getting gas, coffee, etc. Perfect! And for the next 3 or so hrs that route was flawless to the destination. Bypassing a shaping point and re-joining the route went as expected- seamlessly without having to manually skip that point.
That is spot on. Brilliant. That is exactly how it should behave. Well done for sticking with it.
rbentnail wrote:
07 Jul 2020 21:26
With the second route we encountered some unexpected problems. First a road closure routed us way, way out and back. Problem was I had 2 shaping points on the bypassed section. The 595 did not like this. I had to stop and manually skip both points once back on the route.
That is exactly what you need to do. Remove A and B from the list by skipping them, the satnav will then find the fastest toute to C. It may still take you to road closures, but it is not following a route that is leading you straight towards them, so you can follow the road, ignore the stanav if needs be, and it will calculate a new route each time to the Point C much further ahead.
rbentnail wrote:
07 Jul 2020 21:26
The confusion I had I think was something mentioned before- it's hard to tell if you've rejoined the route or if you are on the recalculated part trying to send you back. I finally stopped the route and restarted by picking points at random as my next start point over & over until it was where in the route I needed it to be.
Yes, I mentioned that before. Not sure how you picked the points to start the route - only Via Points are shown to select as the next destination when starting a route. Maybe you just skipped points. Doesn't matter, if it worked.

rbentnail wrote:
07 Jul 2020 21:26
This brings up a question- when I create a route I can change the name of the point with right click/Edit Via Point. Is there a way to transfer those name changes along with the route to the 595? I would take the time to change the names to a sequential number because....
Now there is a question. Yes there is a way - but generally speaking the points made with the route tool do tool do not retain the name that you give them in Basecamp. If you need to rename them - as I did on the example route that I emailed to you - you need to create the points as Waypoints first, and then put them into the route. This requires a slightly different way of planning a route on Basecamp.



If you have an existing route and want to put some Waypoints into it, you have to do this in one of two ways:
1) Use the + button at the right hand side.
2) Drag the newly created Waypoints from the contents of the current list in Basecamp, and drop them onto the route.
In both cases, you will need to re-organise the points in the route list to put them in the correct order.

If you have not yet started the route, create a list folder for the route, and create your waypoints (flag tool). Once you have them all, highlight all of the waypoints, right click and select 'Create Route Using Selected Waypoints'. If you select the points one at a time using CTRL and left click, it will create the route in that order, otherwise you will need to reorganise the sequence in the route list.

Waypoints are normally added tot he route as Via Points, but they can be changed to shaping points in the same way as any route point.

With all of the key points in place, if necessary you can use the insert tool to add additional shaping points to tweak the route - but usually, if you alter the name of these points, the new name is not used by Zumo.

rbentnail wrote:
07 Jul 2020 21:26
The next obstacles popped up. Road closure. No detour, just a big gate closed and locked. So off we go, backtracking. Man oh man the 595 did not like that! Because of the lack of definitive naming of points I could not get it to do well at all. I finally just stopped the route and picked a new destination. And lo! another road closure without a detour! Stop route, pick new destination. We eventually get on the road we want to be on, the original route but the 595 again wants to send us backwards as we have now skipped 4 or 5 points. So again, stop route, start route, pick next destination point to find out it's wrong, repeat.
Don't worry about this - this is not the Zumos fault - it is the road closures. In effect it is the map that is temporarily wrong. You can't do much about that - but you seem to have developed a method that works. But it does highlight the point that although the skip function displays the name of the route point, that name isn't very meaningful. I like to have a sequence number (sometimes) or a mileage if I am in foreign places, so that I can work out where the point is by comparing the milage with my trip odometer, which I set at the start of the day.
rbentnail wrote:
07 Jul 2020 21:26
Overall it worked tho I did expect it to be at least a little more forgiving with the closures. Thankfully I was somewhat familiar with the area so I was able to pick new destinations otherwise we probably would have abandoned the ride altogether.
But - even on roads unknown to you, if you have a clearly labelled Via point at an important place you want to get to, (top of a mountain pass for example), the satnav will get you there, even if you have to skip all of the points before it. It sounds like all sorts of odd things are happening on roads near you. Or the maps are well out of date.


Footnote.

It is possible to change a Shaping Point to a Via Point on the Zumo itself. This enables you to select the new point as the 'Next Destination' when starting a route. This may be handy.

However, If you change a Via Point to a Shaping Point on the Zumo screen, it moves the location of the point and gives it a different name. I reported this fault to Garmin a few weeks back, and got an email back this morning, confirming that the fault had been acknowledged and was on the to-do list. It happens ont he 595 and on the XT. It does not happen on the 590.

Changing a Shaping Point to a Via Point works perfectly well.

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