Average Speeds For Different Road Types

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mike_walker
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Average Speeds For Different Road Types

Post by mike_walker »

Hi - Apologies if this has been covered but searching didn't turn anything up.

I'd like to get the route timings in Basecamp to be as near as possible to that of the XT (or vice versa). Imagine you've planned a route in Basecamp and have to get a ferry but when you set off the XT reckons it'll take an extra hour to get there - eeek!

So, in Basecamp I've get the average speeds for the different road types set and plan my route using "Fastest Time", etc., so that my route on the XT doesn't recalculate. The issue is that I can't seem to find out where to set the average speeds on the XT, nor indeed what speeds it uses so that I could update these on Basecamp. I think I read somewhere that the XT "learns" your average speeds - dunno if this is true and would be clever if it does, but I need to know what those speeds are to aid future planning.

Anyone any ideas?
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Re: Average Speeds For Different Road Types

Post by sussamb »

Garmin claim their devices learn and I've certainly found that, my ETAS are far more reliable these days. Unfortunately as far as I know you can't either view what speeds they are using or indeed set them on any device.
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Re: Average Speeds For Different Road Types

Post by mike_walker »

Thanks - I thought as much but just wanted to check!
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Re: Average Speeds For Different Road Types

Post by danham »

sussamb is correct. In addition, Garmin devices do not go by the posted speed limits alone. They use what's known in traffic engineering as "level of service," meaning what volume of traffic that road can accommodate due to its layout and design, congestion, speed limits, and other factors (when this data is available).

The "learning" function compares what speed you usually drive on that road to its posted and/or level of service parameters.

-dan
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Re: Average Speeds For Different Road Types

Post by jfheath »

I agree with all of the posts above.

Good luck with this quest:
mike_walker wrote: 23 Apr 2022 10:37 I'd like to get the route timings in Basecamp to be as near as possible to that of the XT (or vice versa). Imagine you've planned a route in Basecamp and have to get a ferry but when you set off the XT reckons it'll take an extra hour to get there - eeek!

So, in Basecamp I've get the average speeds for the different road types set and plan my route using "Fastest Time", etc., so that my route on the XT doesn't recalculate.
The XT doesn't have a setting for "Fastest Time". It has a setting for "Faster Time". I am not being pedantic - with the XT, garmin seem to have taken a broader definition of this term than they have on previous XTs. The XT now seems to head for faster roads rather than working out which route is the fastest. So Even if set to Faster Time - you may end up with a route that takes a detour that heads for any nearby major roads - even though there is a perfectly servicable B road that rarely has any traffic.

Whereas before 'Faster Time' was quite predicatable, that is no longer the case and a few extra shaping points have to be plotted - in the same way that you might plot points to keep it from jumping onto a nearby motorway.

Providing your XT map matches your Basecamp map, the XT will always reproduced the original route faithfully.
However, if you give the XT a reason to recalculate it, it will not need any second invitation - unless you turn off the option to recalculate (Settings -> Navigation -> Off-Route Recalculation). What happens then is that if you deviate, you lose the magenta line and voice instruction stop - until you rejoin the magenta line somewhere up ahead. Problems aris if you miss a Via Point when you do this, because when you rejoin the route, it will take you back to a Via Point. Its is quite happy for you to miss out a shaping point though.

Use Via Points for places you will definitely be visiting.

You mentioned ferries. Basecamp does not pass any avoidances information to the XT. Setting Avoidances in Basecamp can be really helpful in planning a route, but it is up to you to ensure the XT gets the information that it needs. Either by placing shaping or via points to force it to take a ferry (or to avoid it), or by setting the appropriate avoidances in the Zumo.

It is worth knowing that the satnav has different avoidances stored for the car, off-road, and motorcycle setting. It doesn't matter what the XT is set to, it will switch to the vehicle that is set by the Basecamp profile name. (Which ahs to be either Driving or Motorcycling - otherwise it defaults to Motorcycling).

The above is handy becasue if you want to use a custom profile in Basecamp, BAsecamp doesn't know about them, so it defaults to using Motorcycle.

The advantage in Basecamp is that if you change settings for avoidances, faster time etc. The changes are implemented on the map instantly - while the dialogue box is still open.

Its useful to make a track of your route when you have it going where you want. It makes it easy to see any changes on the BAsecamp map if you change something. Its also handy to send to the XT. The XT can navigate a track, giving turn by turn directions, and it can also display a track and a route at the same time. So if the route gets recalculated, you can still see the track.

Load of stuff on this here. viewtopic.php?t=1464

Today, I discovered something really important. I found another way that doesn't work.
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Re: Average Speeds For Different Road Types

Post by Peobody »

I read somewhere that setting a route to Custom in Basecamp prevents recalc by the XT. When the profile is set to Custom, the profile for every Via Point in the route gets changed from Motorcycle to Driving. Comments by jfheath indicate that the XT doesn't know about Custom so will default to Motorcycle. Does the XT ignore the profile of each Via Point? Is there really any benefit to setting every route profile to Custom when creating them in Basecamp?
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Re: Average Speeds For Different Road Types

Post by jfheath »

Peobody wrote: 23 Apr 2022 16:23 I read somewhere that setting a route to Custom in Basecamp prevents recalc by the XT. When the profile is set to Custom, the profile for every Via Point in the route gets changed from Motorcycle to Driving. Comments by jfheath indicate that the XT doesn't know about Custom so will default to Motorcycle. Does the XT ignore the profile of each Via Point? Is there really any benefit to setting every route profile to Custom when creating them in Basecamp?
That may depend on where you read it and to which devices it related. My experience with Basecamp is only with the Zumos.
I had noted that evey Via Point declaration repeats the same calculation mode - eg like this Cusotm Route set for Shorter Distance.

<trp:ViaPoint>
<trp:CalculationMode>ShorterDistance</trp:CalculationMode>
<trp:ElevationMode>Standard</trp:ElevationMode>
</trp:ViaPoint>

The <rte> declaration normally defines the transportation mode, but in the case of a custom profile, the transportation mode isn't defined at all, so it must leave it up to the satnav to decide how it is going to deal with it.

In the case of the Zumos where I have records of testing this (590, 595 and XT), the default been motorcycle. I think it did that on the 660 as well, but I have no records.

In the case of the XT if the Calculation Mode is set to something that the XT doesn't recognise, it assumes Faster Time. The XT does this, not Basecamp.

Regarding the XT not recalculating if the mode is 'Custom' - I don't know becasue I haven't considered that as a possibility. For the XT, I doubt that that is the case, because the XT substitutes Motorcycle if it doesn't get a transportation mode. But that may be something to prove or disprove.

It isn't the case that the XT doesn't know about Custom. Basecamp doesn't send it any vehicle information - so the XT defaults to using Motorcycle.
If you send the XT a route using Hiking, Off-Road, Walking, Bicycling etc. The appropriate term is transfrerred to the XT, but the XT ignores it and uses Motorcycling.

So - that goes back to my first comment - it may depend on where you read it and what device is being discussed. I've never used Basecamp with anything but Zumos.

Incidentally - a similar thing happens with other routing preferences. Set the routing to Curvy Roads, and the XT will default to Faster Time.
(That wasn't true of all Zumos, but it is for the XT. I reckon the reason for that is that the XTs curvy roads is more advanced than Basecamp.


The only advantage that I can see of using Custom routes is to avoid the big disadvantage of using Profiles. There is one Motorcycle Profile. You set your preferences for that and you use it to create a lot of routes. A couple of years down the line, you fancy expeimenting with the avoidances and routing, so you change it. And Basecamp sets to the very time consuming task of applying the new motorcycle profile to every single motorcycle route in itse database. Loading them in turn and recalculating each one. You might as well go and have a coffee, 'cos it will take some time.

So I use Custom Profiles if I want to apply avoidances and different types of routes - to see what BC comes up with. The chnages are displayed instantly. I create a track of the route that it creates, then remove all of the avoidances, change it to Faster time and then edit the route by adding route points to make it follwo the same line - still marked by the track.

Then I set it back to Motorcycle. But I don't think there is need to do that - since it will default to that anyway. My motorcycle profile is always Faster time and no avoidances.

Today, I discovered something really important. I found another way that doesn't work.
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Re: Average Speeds For Different Road Types

Post by Peobody »

jfheath wrote: 23 Apr 2022 18:00 The only advantage that I can see of using Custom routes is to avoid the big disadvantage of using Profiles. There is one Motorcycle Profile. You set your preferences for that and you use it to create a lot of routes. A couple of years down the line, you fancy expeimenting with the avoidances and routing, so you change it. And Basecamp sets to the very time consuming task of applying the new motorcycle profile to every single motorcycle route in itse database. Loading them in turn and recalculating each one. You might as well go and have a coffee, 'cos it will take some time.
The XT seems to do something similar. I noticed this after checking its route preferences because the next time I opened a route I was notified that route preferences had changed and asked if I wanted the route recalculated. I didn't think I had changed any of the route preferences but I think I enabled ferries, thought better of it and turned it back off. The XT must have identified that as a change. I suspect this will happen with every other route. I also suspect that having recalculation set to Prompt prevented auto-recalculation.

jfheath, I have just discovered and have fully read through your Zumo XT and Basecamp - Everything That You Need to Know. It's great. Thank you!
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Re: Average Speeds For Different Road Types

Post by jfheath »

Yes - prompted is a good option to choose. It won't recalculate unless you say its OK.

There are other situations which are less easy to control - traffic being one, and Skip recalculates the whole route, not just the current section. (But still keeping to the route points).

Yes - sometimes it is useful to force the XT to recaclulate a route. Changing a setting and changing it back will do that. Probably easiest to change the bike to a car and back or faster to shorter and back.

I regard the XT & Basecamp document as work in progress - which is why I'm not letting printed versions out onto the internet. So if you come across anything which conflicts with your observations, then please say so.

Today, I discovered something really important. I found another way that doesn't work.
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Re: Average Speeds For Different Road Types

Post by mike_walker »

Fascinating stuff. One could spend as much time playing with Basecamp and the XT than riding an actual motorbike. Sadly, I quite enjoy it!! :lol:

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