Zumo 590 + 595 & Basecamp - What the Manuals Do not Tell.

For everything Garmin Zumo 590/595 related
sussamb
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Re: Zumo 590 - What the Manuals Do not Tell.

Post by sussamb »

Following this with interest, can hardly wait to hear what the issue is :)
jfheath
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Re: Zumo 590 - What the Manuals Do not Tell.

Post by jfheath »

sussamb wrote: 01 Jun 2020 10:09 Following this with interest, can hardly wait to hear what the issue is :)
I thought you might be. I'm pretty sure that one of the things I have noticed will be what the problem is - but there are a few things going on, which may be something completely different. Actually, I suspect that when I tell you what I think it is, it won't be anything new to you - but if it isn't then, I don't want to get side tracked into a separate issue. I'll get the problem sorted first and then see what is left. But one of the remnants I will certainly need your help with because I haven't seen this before.

[Edit] I am not being secretive. To explain, I need to be able to place pictures. I tried and after the fourth picture the system refused to accept any more. I don't use dropbox or stuff like that, so I can't simply put links into the document. So I've got a pdf nearly completed and will get that out as soon as I get a way of sharing it. I was going to email, but people would need to be happy to share their email address with me.
Have owned Zumo 550, 660 == Now have Zumo XT, 595, 590, Headache
Use Basecamp (mainly), MyRouteApp (sometimes)

Zumo 590, 595 & Basecamp pdf link
Zumo XT & BC Link


Today, I discovered something really important. I found another way that doesn't work.
jfheath
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Re: Zumo 590 - What the Manuals Do not Tell.

Post by jfheath »

[mention]rbentnail[/mention]

Would you mind providing me with a screen shot of your Basecamp route please - the gdb file that you linked to here download/file.php?id=143. Its the route from Linville to Yellow Mountain.
I am particularly interested in how this appears on your screen in Basecamp- the section from Linville to Oak Grove Baptist Church - so if you could zoom in to show as much detail as possible on the one screen, that would be brilliant.
Have owned Zumo 550, 660 == Now have Zumo XT, 595, 590, Headache
Use Basecamp (mainly), MyRouteApp (sometimes)

Zumo 590, 595 & Basecamp pdf link
Zumo XT & BC Link


Today, I discovered something really important. I found another way that doesn't work.
jfheath
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Re: Zumo 590 - What the Manuals Do not Tell.

Post by jfheath »

Ok. Here's what I have.

The issue was to do with odd navigation behaviour on a route that was published a couple of years ago, and to which @rbentnail linked earlier in this post. That page is here if you want to follow it through. viewtopic.php?f=12&t=93

I downloaded the route - being in the UK, I don't have access to the Garmin USA maps, so I downloaded and installed OSM maps for North Carolina for Basecamp and the Zumo 595.

Here is an extract of the short route. A start, end, 6 Via Points, One Shaping Point. Click the thumbnail to get the larger image
Rbentnails problem route - truncated.jpg
Rbentnails problem route - truncated.jpg (110.76 KiB) Viewed 9418 times

And here is the route list - I have omitted the start and end points from both of these images.

BC route list.jpg
BC route list.jpg (15.68 KiB) Viewed 9418 times

Now, on my OSM maps, the shaping point at Thistledown Lane is in a location where there is no road. I haven't been able to confirm, but the route I downloaded clearly went through this point and follows what now appears to be a track from the Google Satellite images. From the street view photos, there has been no road junction on the NC181 for any of their photos - which date back to 2009.

rbentnail detail.jpg
rbentnail detail.jpg (56.8 KiB) Viewed 9418 times
The stretch of road that doesn't exist according to my OSM maps is shown on this detail - I have coloured it in a light blue.


If all of that is actually the case and that USA maps show this as a navigable road, no wonder Russ is having problems.

This is what I reckon will happen.

First section to Newland Highway. Navigates OK.
Second section to Thistledown Lane - Ok until the turn left from the NC181. There is no junction to take. At this point you have to ignore the instructions. The satnav will calculate a new route from where you are to get you to the Shaping Point at Thistledown Lane. Wherever it takes you, you cannot get there. There is no road. There appears to be a track, which you don't take. Each time you ignore, it calculates another way to get you there. At some point (probably after the 2nd attempt), the 595 will display a message asking if you want to Skip the Shaping Point at Thistledown Lane. If you say No, you are stuck in an endless loop of recalculated routes, all trying to get you to a place it cannot reach. If you say Yes, the 595 looks at its list, and deletes Thistledown Lane from it. It takes you to the next location. You have ticked off Newland Highway, so the next point after that is Old Montezuma Road. So it tries to get you there instead. That should be the end of it. But it is using a map that has a road which is no longer there, and that road is the most direct way. Until you find a way to get to Montezuma Road without going down Thistledown Lane, it is going to keep recalculating and sending you all over the place. Chances are there are other roads on its map that don't actually exist.

So I reckon that the issue is with the map, not with you. Not with the satnav.

Just for completeness. If you manged to join the route on the Old Montezuma Road (which does exist), AFTER the Thistledown Lane Shaping Point, the Zumo will navigate you from there to the Via Point on Old Montezuma Road - without trying to take you back to the Shaping Point on Thistledown Lane.

Why ? Why, when it insisted for so long to take you to the Shaping Point, is it happy to forget about it now ?
Well that is because you have joined the correct route after the shaping point, you are heading to the next route point AND Thistledown Lane is a Shaping Point, not a Via Point. It will happily skip a shaping point once you rejoin the route after it. It won't do that for a Via Point. It will nag forever.

But that is what the skip function is for.

And as soon as you miss a Via Point, if you don't press skip, it will continue to try to get you back to that single Via Point. Even if you reach the end of the route - whatever it plots, if you haven't visited that Via Point or pressed Skip, that is where it is trying to take you.

The 595 introduced the automatic Skip which appears after you have ignored instructions twice. If you ignore the prompt, it goes away and waits for you to ignore another two instructions and shows the prompt again.



Skip is obtained from the spanner button, bottom right of the screen. It is in the Change Route button.

If Change route doesn't appear on the screen from spanner button, you may need to add the icon -- Settings->Map & Vehicle ->Map Tools. Tick or remove the items you want to be available from the spanner. A maximum of 12 are allowed on screen. The Zumo 595 comes with 11 icons, but if you add smartphone links, traffic and weather apps, it can soon fill up.


I discovered something really weird and unexpected when I loaded this route onto my maps that don't have the road marked. At first I thought this was the problem. It may still be the case, but I think it is more likely that your maps show these extinct roads. I want to confirm that - which is why I asked for a screen shot in my previous post.
I'll put this in another thread though - its to do with planned routes going off road. I've put it here: viewtopic.php?f=12&t=759

Sorry its so long. I hope that it helps.

It is unfortunate that you managed to plot a test route on roads that don't actually exist on the ground, and that you did that soon after buying a 595. They are a steep enough learning curve without having that curved ball thrown into the mix.
Last edited by jfheath on 02 Jun 2020 10:49, edited 1 time in total.
Have owned Zumo 550, 660 == Now have Zumo XT, 595, 590, Headache
Use Basecamp (mainly), MyRouteApp (sometimes)

Zumo 590, 595 & Basecamp pdf link
Zumo XT & BC Link


Today, I discovered something really important. I found another way that doesn't work.
sussamb
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Re: Zumo 590 - What the Manuals Do not Tell.

Post by sussamb »

Thistledown Lane is indeed shown on the CN NA map, and is navigable on it, but as you say it doesn't actually exist :D
jfheath
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Re: Zumo 590 - What the Manuals Do not Tell.

Post by jfheath »

sussamb wrote: 01 Jun 2020 22:23 Thistledown Lane is indeed shown on the CN NA map, and is navigable on it, but as you say it doesn't actually exist :D
Thanks @sussamb . That helps to support my suspicions in the above post. I was almost certain that would have been the case, the more that I thought about it. My concern was the number of additional points that had been created in the Zumo on the section of road in question. If you haven't seen it - click the link that I have edited into my previous post. That would have been a real nightmare to sort out if that could happen simply by misplacing a route point.

Normally, if a single point is placed off road, Zumo and Basecamp both do the same thing - navigate to the road that is closest to the point, warn that you need to navigate off road and plots a straight line to the point (eg across a field). And indeed, when I rebuild the route on Basecamp with just the route points, that is what my Basecamp does using the OSM maps.
Last edited by jfheath on 09 Jan 2021 16:47, edited 1 time in total.
Have owned Zumo 550, 660 == Now have Zumo XT, 595, 590, Headache
Use Basecamp (mainly), MyRouteApp (sometimes)

Zumo 590, 595 & Basecamp pdf link
Zumo XT & BC Link


Today, I discovered something really important. I found another way that doesn't work.
rbentnail
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Re: Zumo 590 - What the Manuals Do not Tell.

Post by rbentnail »

jfheath wrote: 01 Jun 2020 12:17 @rbentnail

Would you mind providing me with a screen shot of your Basecamp route please - the gdb file that you linked to here download/file.php?id=143. Its the route from Linville to Yellow Mountain.
I am particularly interested in how this appears on your screen in Basecamp- the section from Linville to Oak Grove Baptist Church - so if you could zoom in to show as much detail as possible on the one screen, that would be brilliant.
Herein lies problem #1- I have spent 2 days trying to learn how to do this. I have been through my laptop manual twice. I have no idea how to provide you with a screenshot. The word "screenshot" is not a technical term Toshiba uses. "PRINTSC" prints but does not paste. There are 115 places the word "screen" is used but nothing about a "screenshot".

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have been reading with great interest your diagnosis. Actually that's a stretch. for me, it's more like decyphering a foreign language. But I think I get the idea. Both Base Camp and Google maps show a navigable road but somehow the same map in the zumo thinks there isn't a road there? Is that what I should be getting out of this? And if so, how then does one know up front, before trying to actually ride the route? After all, both Base Camp and the zumo preview show the correct route.

Reasoning "why" in my head seems moot- if the mapping thinks there is no road it won't go there but it will attempt to send me through a fenced field where there is no road. And down railroad tracks where there is no road. And across an unbridged river where there is no road.
Russ B. Zumo 595 & XT
2007 & 2013 USA Yamaha FJR1300A
rbentnail
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Re: Zumo 590 - What the Manuals Do not Tell.

Post by rbentnail »

So, contemplating for a while on this, it seems I simply need to avoid using roads that are clearly marked in Base Camp as roads that are in fact not roads. Right? :roll:
Russ B. Zumo 595 & XT
2007 & 2013 USA Yamaha FJR1300A
sussamb
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Re: Zumo 590 - What the Manuals Do not Tell.

Post by sussamb »

Well it's not BaseCamp but the map, CN NA. That map has the road as routeable so BaseCamp is happy with it. The error is with HERE, the company that supply the map to Garmin, you can report map errors directly to HERE at https://mapcreator.here.com/mapcreator/ ... 0,3,normal or Garmin, who would then pass it to HERE, at https://my.garmin.com/mapErrors/report.faces
jfheath
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Re: Zumo 590 - What the Manuals Do not Tell.

Post by jfheath »

rbentnail wrote: 02 Jun 2020 15:31 So, contemplating for a while on this, it seems I simply need to avoid using roads that are clearly marked in Base Camp as roads that are in fact not roads. Right? :roll:
Now you've got it !

There's absolutely nothing you could have done about this situation - nothing that would have made sense at the time anyway.

But there are things you can do to help to deal with the the gotchas that the Zumo can throw up. Its largely to do with making sure you plan routes in a particular way and use the various types of point to best advantage. Get it right (and it isn't difficult) and you will be able to keep your hands off the Zumo when riding and either follow or ignore the instructions and know exactly what the Zumo will do as a result.

Give me a day or two, and I'll put some simple, jargon free, easy to follow, illustrated notes for you.

Is Linville local to you ? It will make more sense if I can create a local example for you to go out and try.

Don't bother about the screen shot - sorry the request gave you a headache. @sussamb provided me with the confirmation that there was no road on the Garmin maps, which was what I needed to see.
Last edited by jfheath on 09 Jan 2021 16:48, edited 1 time in total.
Have owned Zumo 550, 660 == Now have Zumo XT, 595, 590, Headache
Use Basecamp (mainly), MyRouteApp (sometimes)

Zumo 590, 595 & Basecamp pdf link
Zumo XT & BC Link


Today, I discovered something really important. I found another way that doesn't work.