Shaping points enigma

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rbentnail
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Re: Shaping points enigma

Post by rbentnail »

jfheath wrote:
08 Jul 2020 14:28
rbentnail wrote:
07 Jul 2020 21:26
This brings up a question- when I create a route I can change the name of the point with right click/Edit Via Point. Is there a way to transfer those name changes along with the route to the 595? I would take the time to change the names to a sequential number because....
Now there is a question. Yes there is a way - but generally speaking the points made with the route tool do tool do not retain the name that you give them in Basecamp. If you need to rename them - as I did on the example route that I emailed to you - you need to create the points as Waypoints first, and then put them into the route. This requires a slightly different way of planning a route on Basecamp.

If you have an existing route and want to put some Waypoints into it, you have to do this in one of two ways:
1) Use the + button at the right hand side.
2) Drag the newly created Waypoints from the contents of the current list in Basecamp, and drop them onto the route.
In both cases, you will need to re-organise the points in the route list to put them in the correct order.

If you have not yet started the route, create a list folder for the route, and create your waypoints (flag tool). Once you have them all, highlight all of the waypoints, right click and select 'Create Route Using Selected Waypoints'. If you select the points one at a time using CTRL and left click, it will create the route in that order, otherwise you will need to reorganise the sequence in the route list.

Waypoints are normally added tot he route as Via Points, but they can be changed to shaping points in the same way as any route point.

With all of the key points in place, if necessary you can use the insert tool to add additional shaping points to tweak the route - but usually, if you alter the name of these points, the new name is not used by Zumo.
Alright then! I've been attempting to get this to work. And I've made some progress, developing a "system" that seems to match how my brain works! That is, it makes sense to me and is most importantly manageable. With this much data piled into the list it can get very confusing very quickly to me. Using Base Camp with an existing route:

- I modified my existing shaping and via point names to include a number so I know where to add the newly named/numbered waypoint I'm creating.

- Double click the route, tick Center of map. Create a new waypoint near each existing shaping/via point, name it with a number. I created waypoints with a brief description and more importantly with a number.

- Click + to insert waypoint. Use up or down to place it correctly in the list of shaping/via points.

- Use the erase tool to remove the original shaping/via point.

- Again, center of map, correctly locate new point on map.

- Recalculate. Thus far the route hasn't changed a bit, only the points indicated on it.

Whew! That's a LOT of work, mostly just keep things organized and not becoming overwhelmed. Tomorrow is the test- transferring the route to the device and see if the new names go. I believe all this will be easier to do when creating a new route rather than modifying an existing one.
jfheath wrote:
08 Jul 2020 14:28
It is possible to change a Shaping Point to a Via Point on the Zumo itself. This enables you to select the new point as the 'Next Destination' when starting a route. This may be handy.

However, If you change a Via Point to a Shaping Point on the Zumo screen, it moves the location of the point and gives it a different name. I reported this fault to Garmin a few weeks back, and got an email back this morning, confirming that the fault had been acknowledged and was on the to-do list. It happens ont he 595 and on the XT. It does not happen on the 590.

Changing a Shaping Point to a Via Point works perfectly well.
Maybe some day I'll attempt on-device modification. So far adding a point and designating it Next Destination has worked well for me. Once I reach that point, if needed, I just add another. In this way the name/sequential numbering isn't important. I have even added several points at a time, remembering to do the farthest away first and work back towards me. Sounds simple to most but I had a difficult time with that for a while.
Russ B. Zumo 595,
2007 USA Yamaha FJR1300A, 133k and counting

jfheath
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Re: Shaping points enigma

Post by jfheath »

rbentnail wrote:
07 Jul 2020 21:26
Whew! That's a LOT of work, mostly just keep things organized and not becoming overwhelmed. Tomorrow is the test- transferring the route to the device and see if the new names go. I believe all this will be easier to do when creating a new route rather than modifying an existing one.
Yes - it is a lot of work, but you have been very careful to make sure that the new route with the new points matches exaclty the old route with the old points. It's good to see you making progress with this !

Don't forget that if you want some of the new points to be shaping points, to change them in the Basecamp Route List to "won't alert" before you transfer the route.

rbentnail wrote:
07 Jul 2020 21:26
Maybe some day I'll attempt on-device modification.
I would avoid it like the plague if I were you ! It really isn't very easy to do. I have this notion that the people who create and test the software do not actually use the devices themselves. The solution is very good technically, but using it is a pain.
rbentnail wrote:
07 Jul 2020 21:26
So far adding a point and designating it Next Destination has worked well for me. Once I reach that point, if needed, I just add another. In this way the name/sequential numbering isn't important. I have even added several points at a time, remembering to do the farthest away first and work back towards me. Sounds simple to most but I had a difficult time with that for a while.
That is the important thing - find a method that works for you. If it works, it works and that is all that matters.
I have been looking closely at how I create a route more recently - and becasue I create waypoints first, I never spotted that it was only Waypoints that retain the name from Zumo.

It turns out that I:
  • Set the start point a couple of miles up the road I want to be on.
  • Set the end point precisely - if I am aiming for a hotel, I often looking at Street View to check what the roads look like as I approach, locate somewhere to park the bike, and check the no-entry signs. And if in Europe, tranlsate the road signs so that I know exactly where to go and what to do when I arrive.
  • Create a series of Way Points to flesh out the route.
  • Create the route from the Waypoints
  • Carefully check the position of the Waypoints and move them as necessary (onto the road, to the correct side of the road, out of towns etc)
  • Insert additional points if necessary to force the route onto particular roads.
  • Then if I want - change the name of the Waypoints to include: Day number, Sequence number or mileage.
  • Change points to Via Shaping as appropriate.
All of that is only if it is a tour for a long holiday. If I just want a route to follow to save me getting the map out, I don't care a jot. I just want the magenta route on the satnav. ANy problems on route, I'll sort them out.

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Re: Shaping points enigma

Post by rbentnail »

Well, the renaming of points in a route and transferring them to the device almost works to my satisfaction. Almost.

Creating waypoints, changing names & symbols, adding to route, placing in route- all those things described in a previous post work fine. The "problem" I encounter is the even though I change the symbol from a flag to something else, when the route is transferred to the device, regardless of how done, the new via point symbol is not transferred. It always reverts back to the default generic flag symbol. In Base Camp I see the new symbol on the route, on the 595 just a flag.

Any suggestions? I'd really like to see the new symbol on the route on my 595. That's the whole point of doing all this!
Russ B. Zumo 595,
2007 USA Yamaha FJR1300A, 133k and counting

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Re: Shaping points enigma

Post by sussamb »

Unfortunately not, BaseCamp symbols haven't transferred to on the road devices for a long while, think the last devices to do so were the nuvi 14xx series.

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Re: Shaping points enigma

Post by jfheath »

No, the symbols do not transfer - never have done in my experience on the 550, 660, 590, 595 or XT. Zumo always displays green flags for the start point, chequered flag for the end point, orange flag for the Via Points, and light blue discs for the Shaping Points. This is now consistent between the map and the route list.

Favourites can be made to show up (as hearts) on the map, whether or not they are part of the route. These are the waypoints that were created in Basecamp, but I find that they clutter up the screen too much, and so generally, I turn these off.

The advantage of having the name transfer correctly is that the name is displayed as you saved it :
* when shown in the Zumo route list,
* when the list of Via Points is shown for Select Next Destinations when starting a route
* when the automatic skip messages are displayed
* when manually skipping the next point
* when approaching or arriving at the next Via Point
* in the list of turn by turn directions
And the name is spoken by the satnav when approaching or arriving at the next Via Point

jcinoz
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Re: Shaping points enigma

Post by jcinoz »

@AaroninNY thanks for starting this thread. I’ve just returned from a 2nd disastrous trip where I couldn’t follow the route I had so carefully planned. This time I “got around it” by viewing the map with the correct route on it and zooming and panning on the go which was both annoying and frankly dangerous. What made it more annoying was that I had previously been using a 660 with no issue for a number of years. Then Garmin stopped updating maps for it, despite my having purchased a “lifetime” map subscription. After a lot of to and fro with Garmin support the only solution available to me was to return the 660 to them in part exchange for a refurbished 595. Then I also had to outlay for new mounts for my motorcycles. Suffice to say after all that that my level of frustration with Garmin was through the roof and I was ready to throw the whole lot in the bin and go back to paper.

It’s so nice to know that I’m not the only one so frustrated with the appalling quality of this software. Who designed this!? It just makes no sense at all!

@jfheath I found a couple of different places on the net where you offered the PDF that you have so kindly produced which hopefully explains how to work around these issues. I would dearly love to get a copy of that if at all possible? Thank you! As this is my first post I don’t yet have permission to PM you my email address. Perhaps that will change after I make this post...

I tried creating a new route around my local streets and using the “trick” of choosing the start point as the destination. That seemed to work in that it kept the route intact but I didn’t seem to be getting any turn directions etc. As soon as I reached the starting point it just kept a message across the top of the screen that I had reached it. Does that sound right? Maybe I just needed to keep going further past it?

jfheath
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Re: Shaping points enigma

Post by jfheath »

jcinoz wrote:
14 Aug 2020 09:44
I tried creating a new route around my local streets and using the “trick” of choosing the start point as the destination. That seemed to work in that it kept the route intact but I didn’t seem to be getting any turn directions etc. As soon as I reached the starting point it just kept a message across the top of the screen that I had reached it. Does that sound right? Maybe I just needed to keep going further past it?
No - that isn't right. Something is wrong somewhere.

The 'trick' is actually in a few parts.

1) Don't put your start point where you intend to start riding. Put it on the road that you intend to be on once you have escaped from the local area

2) The list of point under 'Select Next Destination' shows only the Via Points. It doesn't show Shaping Points. If you have only a start and an end point, then make sure that the two are nowhere near each other and that your route away from home doesn't cross over the route back home. If you enjoyed the 660, you will be familiar with how the fact that it was happy taking either option at the cross-over of a figure of 8 circuit. (It would tell you the correct way, but if you took the wrong way, it would navigate from there in the direction you took. The same is true of the 595 if have only two Via Points (ie the start and the end)

3) When is says 'Select Next Destination', choose your start point. But beware - it may be off the top of the screen so you have to scroll up to see it. It will navigate you to the start and then continue naviagting from that point onwards. But make sure you observed point 1 first. If a group of you are starting an identical route at the start - some of you will be parked up beyond the start point and will have problems ! Put the start up the road.

If you don't have any turn directions it may be that you have automatic recalculate turned off. (If it is turned off, and you stary from the route, the satnav goes into a silent sulk).
Setting->Navigation->Off-Route Recalculation->Automatic

Or your volume is turned down
Main Screen->Volume->Spanner->Navigation ->xx %

The software is actually pretty good. But it doesn't necessarily do things in the way that you intend it to.
There is one major bug on the 595. Don't change a Via Point to a shaping point on the 595 screen itself. It will move the point to a different location. The same fault has also appeared on the XT, and I have told them about it.

And depending on how you get your sound, there is a master volume available on some screens. Check the Media Player

Aha - just about to send this and a new PM has popped up. I'll send you the document.

Just read your PM - I'll quote a bit here:

I see from that thread one of the things you need to do is tell it your destination is actually your starting point. How you managed to figure that out is beyond me! The four guys on a recent trip where we were grappling with this issue are all professional software developers with collectively over 120 years of experience and none of us thought to try that, so massive kudos to you!

Kind words. Professional software developers aren't the people likely to spot issues like that. What you need is software testers, who are a different breed - they think differently. Programmers know how to make things work as intended. Testers know how to make something go wrong. Its a different way of looking at things.

But really that phrase 'Select Next Destination' would be better if it said 'Select the Via Point at which you would like to join the route, I'll work out the fastest / shortest way to get there'.

sussamb
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Re: Shaping points enigma

Post by sussamb »

Yes, the wording could be better as it fools a number of people. It's been like that since Garmin replaced Route Planner with Trip Planner many years ago now, you'd have thought they might have clarified the wording.

jcinoz
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Re: Shaping points enigma

Post by jcinoz »

Thanks John. I suspect I had initiated “sulk mode” by disabling auto route recalculation as one of the myriad of things I I’ve tried. More experimenting to be done but it’s good to know I should be able to get it working at least to some degree. It really shouldn’t be this hard! Thanks again for your help!

jcinoz
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Re: Shaping points enigma

Post by jcinoz »

I’m not sure it’s just a wording change that is required here. In my opinion that screen is completely unnecessary. It knows the exact route I want to take, it knows where I am on that route - it should just start navigating it (as it used to do). If you weren’t at the start of the route it would prompt you to take you there but otherwise it would just pick up wherever you were. I can’t imagine that’s not what the vast majority of people would want to do, particularly with a route they have created themselves and imported from Basecamp. Again in my opinion, it’s just a bad UI from Garmin.

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