Had unexpected fun with RUT today.

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jfheath
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Re: Had unexpected fun with RUT today.

Post by jfheath »

Peobody wrote: 16 Jun 2024 13:50 @jfheath, are you convinced that had the route been a saved route rather than an imported one that the RUT behaviour would not have happened?
Almost.

I had three very rigourous test routes when I was trying to pin down the nature of RUT.

All of them, involved a route with an additional route point that I could skip. Via/shaping had no effect. All of them had a section of route which was calculated by Basecamp and which was passed unaltered to the XT. But I knew that if the XT recalculated that section, it would choose a different way for the route.

The skip was designed to force the XT to recalculate the route. I had observed on other occasions that a recalculated route behaved differently from one that hadn't been recalculated. My suspicion was that they had used the algorithm for dealing with deviating from a track-trip. I still think that.

In every case, the difference between the two ways was marginal, and I knew where the tipping point was. (The tipping point is the place where if you place the bike on one side, the XT will route in one direction. If you place the bike on the other side it will route in the other direction.

Ok. To answer the question. Every one of those routes was tested after a system a reset. The XT displayed RUT behaviour when the route was shown as "imported". U turns allowed.

I tested all of them by manually modifying the mImport byte. Same route, same behaviour from me. Different result. The 'saved' route performed better than my 590 would have done. In one case giving just one u turn request, and then recalculating the way I was riding. In another case, the recalculation was instant - and a good few miles before the tipping point. One waited until near the tipping point, but recalculated ahead before it reached that point.

So yes, the saved route has always behaved as we think that it should, even when enticed to get stuck in a RUT.

Also - the issue that led to this discovery. On one test I set all of my route points as Waypoints, so that if necessary I could quickly rebuild the route using favourites at the roadside. I expected that I would need that, as I was using the first part of the route for another test. I did need it, and the subsequent test route behaved imperfectly for the first time. In a later test I repeated the same section of 3 mile route 5 times trying different things. I could not get it to show RUT behaviour no matter what I did because I had built the route on the XT. Routes built in the XT never showed RUT behaviour.

It was reporting this observation that prompted someone on here to comment that there were two lists in trip planner - "Imported" and "Saved". Which frank was immediately able to latch onto, because he had been trying to decode the trip files while looking into subclass fields and had already encountered the "mImport" byte.

I had never spotted the two lists - each of my tests started with a factory reset Zumo - otherwise my riding history could be blamed for routing behaviour. I didn't want the Zumo to know that I always turned left at that junction.


BUT I have never done what you described. I just think that if you have loaded a route and then choose the end as the destination - that would be classed as an imported route, and will display RUT behaviour when you deviate.

If it was a 'nobbled' route (mImport byte changed), or one that had been created on the XT, or one that was a 'Where To / Destination' (ie not a route from trip planner), then they will behave like Saved routes and will not show RUT behaviour when you deviate.

So that is my logic. I could be wrong, and if I am, then that is useful information - and I'll modify my mental model accordingly.
And if I am right - well that's useful too, because at the moment it is only what I think will happen. My best guess.

But you have to be wary. Just because the XT keeps asking for U turns, doesn't mean you have a RUT situation. One of my tests was like that. If that is a legitimate faster way to go - taking into account that the XT's algorithm heads for faster roads rather than taking a faster route - then that is not RUT. That is expected.

But if it gives up and navigates ahead around the tipping point, then that is normal behaviour.

You cannot know where the tipping point is unless you work it out beforehand. I did it by trial and error (binary search) Placing the bike at a point and asking it to plot the way to my intended next point. Then another which I expected to head in the other direction.

Then move one point half way towards the other - see which way that goes. Keep doing that until the two points - one heading one way, ine heading the other - are close together. I cheated and did it in Basecamp first so that I knew roughly where the tipping point was, and then had a narrower area to look at on the XT.
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Re: Had unexpected fun with RUT today.

Post by Peobody »

I tolerated the RUT until such point that I thought I was past the tipping point, but I am frequently reminded of how inept I am at outthinking the XT. I just used Google Maps to estimate time and miles of my route vs. the XT's 'faster' one. Mine: 105 miles, 2 hrs 8 mins. The XT's: 99 miles, 1 hr 59 mins. I stopped the route after approx 20 miles of RUT. Logically this should have been past the tipping point my logic and the XT's are quite different. The lesson learned from this is that selecting the end point of an 'imported' route as an entry point results in a different behaviour than selecting that same point from a search, and likely from a saved waypoint too.
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Re: Had unexpected fun with RUT today.

Post by jfheath »

The XT is a real pain.

I got it to behave by (mostly)
Using more shaping points than I like to
Nobbling it - I usually load and resave the active route, but that comes with issues.
Always create a track and display that - using a modified theme that sets the track width wider.
Never pressing skip.
Using as many waypoints as I can so that the XT retains the name I gave
Exporting a gpx file and placing it on the SD card.

This week I have been following XT2 routes. I deviated twice - I don't know why - but it didn't miss a beat. I can't tell you how nice that was. But that isn't a recommendation - I wasn't trying to get it to go wrong, and the route was carefully planned.
Never the less it was relaxing not having to think what it was going to do .
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Re: Had unexpected fun with RUT today.

Post by rbentnail »

Peobody wrote: 16 Jun 2024 13:50
rbentnail wrote: 16 Jun 2024 12:30 This is why, regardless of whatever else I've done, with the XT I also transfer a waypoint for my destination.
To what benefit? If the route is transferred to internal storage then the via points contained therein automatically get recorded as Saved waypoints. If the route is transferred to the SD card then the via points contained therein are available for import. I'm kicking myself for not thinking of importing the destination hotel and then routing to it using its Saved record rather than searching for it.
rbentnail wrote: 16 Jun 2024 12:30 Picking a route destination makes it act stupid, picking a distant Saved Place does not.
As you know, I am an advocate of having via points sprinkled throughout a route for entry point selection following a restart. I now I know to check the routing to that entry point. I'm sure the stupid routing gets exponentially stupider in relation to the distance to the entry point.
I've not noticed the "importability" of a route destination to become a saved place. I've always thought that the start and destination points, tho alerting like VIA points, aren't the same and sometimes behave differently than in-route via points so I've never tried importing one. What happens if I delete the route, does the saved place also go away? It never does as a separate saved place, independent of a route. Also, other than a VIA point now and then, I'm not a big user of VIAs. I often use a route as a guide rather than a route and leave my route a lot. And we know what happens when we have VIA points skipped.
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Re: Had unexpected fun with RUT today.

Post by jfheath »

rbentnail wrote: 16 Jun 2024 22:02 I've not noticed the "importability" of a route destination to become a saved place. I've always thought that the start and destination points, tho alerting like VIA points, aren't the same and sometimes behave differently than in-route via points so I've never tried importing one.
Start and End points are a special sort of Via Point. The system will not ley you put a shaping point at the start. If the 2nd point is a shaping point and you delete the start, point 2 becomes the start and it is automatically changed to a start via point.

Yes Start and End vias will behave slightly differently simply because they are at the start and end. But essentially they are Vias.
rbentnail wrote: 16 Jun 2024 22:02 What happens if I delete the route, does the saved place also go away? It never does as a separate saved place, independent of a route. Also, other than a VIA point now and then, I'm not a big user of VIAs. I often use a route as a guide rather than a route and leave my route a lot. And we know what happens when we have VIA points skipped.
When a route is transferred to the Zumo, it will contain the definition of all of the saved Waypoints that have been used in the route. You dont have to transfer those Waypoints separately, though it doesn't matter if you do.

Sometimes you might have some waypoints created so that you can have the option of visiting that location. No need to look up where it is, or seek out a phone number. It is there in the Waypoint. However, if it is not in the route, then you must select it to be transferred in addition to the route. If you like to first create a gpx file, waypoints, tracks and routes can all be saved in the same file.


When transferred to the Zumo, the XT does some surprising stuff with the gpx file. I dont know if this is new behaviour, but I didn't see it until recently.

1. It reads all of the Waypoint definitions and it places them in 'Favourites' or 'Saved'. Even if the same waypoint is declared more than ince, the XT stores only one copy. The definitions for your waypoints are then removed from the gpx file.

2. A similar thing happens with tracks. It places tracks in the track app and then deletes the tracks from the gpx file. If the gpx file contained only track data, the file will then be empty, and will be deleted.

3 The routes are left intact in their original gpx file.

The removal of tracks, waypoints and deletion of files does not happen if the gpx file is out onto the SD Card.

-------

Now to answer the question. If you delete a route from the XT, any waypoints that were part of that route will remain in Favourites / Saved.


If you transferred the route etc from Basecamp to internal storage then a file called temp.gpx is used. This file is deleted the next time the usb cable is connected. This means that some data will no longer be available to reimport, once it has been deleted from the Zumo.

Waypoints and tracks are removed from the gox file, so if you delete thos from the XT favourites / saved app - you cannot get them back. They have gone.

------

The above nightmare scenario is true - but only for data transferred io internal storage - including data shared by BT, or data sent to the XT using the Drive App.

But it doesn't happen if your data is saved on the SD card. The XT will not automatically store waypoints into favourites / saved . You have to import them ****

Ditto tracks.

But you can delete anything you want from the XT apps, routes tracks and waypoints can still be imported.

----

******

Note that waypoint on the SD card will not be found by the XT unless there is at least one waypoint in Internal Storage. If you get such a message - saying that there are no waypoints to import - it lies.

Tap the map to get a flag. If it doesn't appear, tap the screen again. Save the flag that appears. You have just created a waypoint.

Then try importing your Waypoints



Sorry it is another ling answer from me. But it needed it.


Nb - it isn't just Via points being skipped that cause issues. Skipping a shaping point will create the same issues too.
To be precise, it seems to be the recalculation of the route that causes issues, and tapping Skip causes the entire route to be recalculated.
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Re: Had unexpected fun with RUT today.

Post by rbentnail »

jfheath wrote: 16 Jun 2024 22:47
rbentnail wrote: 16 Jun 2024 22:02 I've not noticed the "importability" of a route destination to become a saved place. I've always thought that the start and destination points, tho alerting like VIA points, aren't the same and sometimes behave differently than in-route via points so I've never tried importing one.
------

The above nightmare scenario is true - but only for data transferred io internal storage - including data shared by BT, or data sent to the XT using the Drive App.

But it doesn't happen if your data is saved on the SD card. The XT will not automatically store waypoints into favourites / saved . You have to import them ****

Ditto tracks.

But you can delete anything you want from the XT apps, routes tracks and waypoints can still be imported.
Differing behaviors internal memory v. SD card then, the reason I don't see waypoints automatically saved. I transfer nothing, absolutely nothing, to internal memory. ALL routes, points and tracks for me go to the SD card, as does ALL music. It's sometimes a matter of convenience but also the capability of re-importing a route or point after deletion is important to me.
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Re: Had unexpected fun with RUT today.

Post by Oop North John »

jfheath wrote: 16 Jun 2024 19:54 This week I have been following XT2 routes. I deviated twice - I don't know why - but it didn't miss a beat. I can't tell you how nice that was. But that isn't a recommendation - I wasn't trying to get it to go wrong, and the route was carefully planned.
Never the less it was relaxing not having to think what it was going to do .
The only reason I can see me buying an XT2 is if it (1) Has sorted out the "fastest" routing algorithms and (2) I can still use Basecamp to plan routes on. Having the RUT sorted would be a bonus as well.
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Re: Had unexpected fun with RUT today.

Post by jfheath »

Stay tuned, I'm still forming opinions. All good so far.
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Re: Had unexpected fun with RUT today.

Post by Peobody »

rbentnail wrote: 17 Jun 2024 08:55 Differing behaviors internal memory v. SD card then, the reason I don't see waypoints automatically saved. I transfer nothing, absolutely nothing, to internal memory. ALL routes, points and tracks for me go to the SD card, as does ALL music. It's sometimes a matter of convenience but also the capability of re-importing a route or point after deletion is important to me.
You mentioned that you transfer the route and its end point. I was curious why also the end point. AFAIK, all waypoints contained in routes on the SD card can be imported individually by going to Where To? > Saved > Hamburger > Import. It can take some time for all of them to be listed, and the list can potentially be quite long, but there is a search function that works well in finding all waypoints that contain the search content in their name.
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Re: Had unexpected fun with RUT today.

Post by rbentnail »

Peobody wrote: 17 Jun 2024 23:20
rbentnail wrote: 17 Jun 2024 08:55 Differing behaviors internal memory v. SD card then, the reason I don't see waypoints automatically saved. I transfer nothing, absolutely nothing, to internal memory. ALL routes, points and tracks for me go to the SD card, as does ALL music. It's sometimes a matter of convenience but also the capability of re-importing a route or point after deletion is important to me.
You mentioned that you transfer the route and its end point. I was curious why also the end point. AFAIK, all waypoints contained in routes on the SD card can be imported individually by going to Where To? > Saved > Hamburger > Import. It can take some time for all of them to be listed, and the list can potentially be quite long, but there is a search function that works well in finding all waypoints that contain the search content in their name.
I already have made a waypoint to mark my destination, this is done before I ever make the route. I can transfer 1 waypoint or I can go through the wait and either go through the aggravating search or wade through an extensive list. To me, 1 point transferred and done is the way to go.
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