setting route preferences inside each planned trip

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Re: setting route preferences inside each planned trip

Post by jfheath »

tombarrington wrote: 21 Dec 2023 15:44 @jfheath, I'm still confused about a subtlety of my settings and the potential for recalculation. Let's say I create an ADV Riding profile in BaseCamp that is set for Faster Time and has all avoidances unchecked (Except Narrow Trails, which is not a choice in the XT. It would differ from my Motorcycling profile by only the Unpaved Roads avoidance.). I then successfully create a route following some dirt roads, using a reasonable number of shaping points, and transfer it to the XT. The XT's Motorcycle settings are set match those for the ADV Riding profile. The maps also match. The XT will display this route exactly, as you've said. Shouldn't it also reproduce this same route in the event of a recalculation?
Short answer. Do what you are doing. Use the Adv Rider profile that you have made. Use it for any roads that you want BC to calculate to allow unpaved roads. Before you load any roads that use that profile, rememebr that the XT thinks it is just a motorcycle route - so you need to change the motorcycle avoideance to allow unpaved roads. That is the best, but not foolproof way of getting the XT to route like BC. You may need to use a few more shaping points to stop the XT heading for main roads though.

Long Answer and explanation


I can see why you would think so, and it may do - but that will depend on how well the shaping points pin the route to the roads that you want.

1. Basecamp routes get transferred exactly as they were in Basecamp. Thousands of invisible route point maybe only a few metres apart if the road is very twisty, ensure the route on the XT is identical to the route that you plotted. That is regardless of any settings that you have either in BAsecamp or in the XT.

2. You have created a profile "ADV Riding". This is sent to the XT. The XT basically says - this isn't a motorcycle, it isn't a car, it isn't a direct route.
Ok - I'll use the default setting - Motorcycle. So that is OK in this case.

3. Whatever routing preferences are set in Basecamp - ie this little lot:

BC Avoidances.jpg
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.... the XT completely ignores them. Why ? Because none of them are sent to the XT in the first place - so the XT doesn't have a clue what avoidances you set. But the XT does have the complete route identical to the one that Basecamp created. And BC used the avoidances to calculate the route. So providing the route deosn't recalculate, your route will avoid whatever your BC route avoided.

If the Zumo needs to recalculate, it will use then use avoidances that you have set for the motorcyle on the XT. Now - if you want it to avoid Unpaved Roads then when it recalculates it will indeed avoid unpaved roads. Since it uses the same maps that BC used and BC had an Unpaved Roads option that you can tick to avoid them, any reasonable person would think that the Zumo will calculate a route that is identical to the one that Basecamp would calculate. That would be true (more or less) for the Zumo 590, Slighty less true for the Zumo 595.

BUT - the Zumo XT uses a completely different routing algorithm for calculating the route. Forget 'Faster' meaning the fastest route between two points. Faster now seems to mean head for the nearest main road that would eventually get you to the next route point. In the same way that you migght expect the routing to prefer to head for a motorway.
AND - the XT build up a pretty accurate profile about your riding on different categories of roads, and takes that into account.

SO - the XT is likely to come up with a different answer. It will still visit all of the route points, so if you via and shaping points are carefully placed, it stands a better chance of coming close to the original.
tombarrington wrote: 21 Dec 2023 15:44 If there is a reason why the recalculation is different then is changing the Motorcycling profile in BaseCamp the solution? The thought of all those older routes recalculating (because Unpaved Roads was checked) is scary.
No. That would work, but as you say it gives you a nightmare.

You have chosen the best way of dealing with this. Create a route using a different profile: Adv Motorcycle. This allows you to store all of the settings for that type of riding in Basecamp - under one named profile. When the Zumo receives the route, it will not recognise Adv Motorcycle so it uses the settings in the Zumo that you have saved for Motorcycle.

As an alternative, you could choose not to use a Basecamp profile at all. That allows you to make the same settings in Basecamp for just the one route. It is referred to as a Custom Route. Double click the route in basecamp. In the dialogue that pops up, click the Route Options tab. Then instead of using the Motorcycle Activity Profile, select "Customize Route Options". That gives you the dialogue box to make the settings for this one route. The top section indicates that there is no activity profile used, and the option to customize this route is selected. You would have to do this for every custom route though. Since you are likely to have a number of routes with the same settings, it is far easier to create a new activity profile so that you can apply that to a number of routes - as you have done. Then rely on the XT to treat it as a motorcycle route, which uses the XT's motorcycle avoidance settings. You will have to adjust these settings before loading the route.

So what you need to do before you load any routes that 'Allow Unpaved Roads' in Basecamp, is to set your XT's Motorcycle avoidances to allow Unpaved Roads. If you set it after the route is in the Zumo, it may well cause the entire route to be recalculated. (But I think that the XT asks if you want it to recalculate when this happens. Other Zumos do not. You get the identical route to the one that Basecamp created anyway. And then if the route does recalculate it will use the Zumo's Motorcycle avoidance settings.
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Re: setting route preferences inside each planned trip

Post by tombarrington »

Wow, that is the most succinct description of the XT's behavior that I've seen yet! Thank you, I think I'm starting to get it. Nice to know I was heading in the right direction and now I know why.

You made a suggestion early that I agree should reduce the chances of a deviation in the event of a recalculation. That was to toggle between profiles so as to identify areas that needed additional shaping points in order to force the same route. I did this on my test route.

Route with ADV Riding Profile
Image

Route with Motorcycle Profile - note that it rerouted almost 360 degrees in order to touch all shaping points. It left a gap of less than one mile between the two shaping points it couldn't connect. It added 115 miles to the route for want of a one mile gap!
Image

Route with Motorcycle Profile and One Additional Shaping Point - adding one point in the gap caused the Motorcycle Profile to behave like the ADV riding profile. Normally, I would not expect to need shaping points this close together. I haven't tested this on the device yet but it gives me much more confidence.
Image

Thank you again for your assistance. There is so much to learn!
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Re: setting route preferences inside each planned trip

Post by Peobody »

tombarrington wrote: 21 Dec 2023 18:10 There is so much to learn!
How about some more. :D

An alternative method can be to use one or several Direct route points. Basecamp and the XT then ignore the street conditions following the Direct route point up to the next route point. This is at the expense of the route line not following the road. The images below show traversing an unpaved section by using a shaping point at each end of it and then setting the first one as a Direct point. Route direction is riding North.
This first image is without a Direct shaping point. The route calculates to the shaping point from each direction then u-turns.
The second image shows setting the first (southern) shaping point as a Direct point.
The third shows the results after recalculating.
Obviously you can use additional Direct points to create turns in the section you are trying to route direct over.
Basecamp MT 01.JPG
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Basecamp MT 02.JPG
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Basecamp MT 03.JPG
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Re: setting route preferences inside each planned trip

Post by tombarrington »

LOL...I learned this back in June on a different thread to which you responded. It helped me fix a pesky routing bug that insisted I cross over the road I wanted to use instead of just turning.

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Re: setting route preferences inside each planned trip

Post by jfheath »

One other thing - rather important with the XT.

The XT behaves oddly if the route recalculates and you later deviate from the route. It will take you on a merry dance to get you back to where you left the route - which is a pain if you left the route because of traffic or a road closure. What it should do when you deviate is after a while, route you ahead to the next route point. That is what Garmin say it should do. That is what the 590 and 595 does. This is what the XT does if you build a route on the XT screen and save it. But if you import a route from Basecamp or any other route planning software, it behaves very oddly indeed.

So - the quickest fix to this is to load each route, say Go!, and then go back to the Trip Planner and select the active route. Save it with a slightly different name. This will save the same route, and it will add your current position as a new start point. Abandon the original route and load this new one. When you select Go ! choose the original start point as your next destination, not the start point.

If your route is in a different part of the world, then loading the route and selecting Go! isn't going to work too well, because It will have to find a way from where you are now to get you to a very remote start point. So leave it until you are closer to your start point - eg in a hotel the night before, (or turn GPS off, and set you bike's position to be near to the start). Then the XT doesn't have a really long section to calculate to get you to the start point.

When you save it, the XT creates a route that is under the 'Saved Routes' banner, rather than under the 'Imported Routes' banner. The Zumo thinks that it has created the route, and for some reason, this weird routing behaviour does not happen. I have tried and tested this many times using the original route - which goes wrong and the 'saved route' which has never gone wrong in exaclty the same circumstances. It works and is a good habit to get into.

There are other ways of nobbling the route using a computer and accessing the appropriate files - but this method you can do on a long trip just using the XT screen, and if you do it the night before at the end of a days ride, then you are already at your start point for tomorrows ride.
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Re: setting route preferences inside each planned trip

Post by Peobody »

jfheath wrote: 22 Dec 2023 14:50 The XT behaves oddly if the route recalculates and you later deviate from the route. It will take you on a merry dance to get you back to where you left the route
It will take you on a dance all right, but it isn't a merry one. :lol:
jfheath wrote: 22 Dec 2023 14:50 So - the quickest fix to this is to load each route, say Go!, and then go back to the Trip Planner and select the active route. Save it with a slightly different name.
I have done this several times, yet I struggle with it every time. The process isn't intuitive to me. I hope it is to everyone else.
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Re: setting route preferences inside each planned trip

Post by Peobody »

tombarrington wrote: 21 Dec 2023 22:33 LOL...I learned this back in June on a different thread to which you responded. It helped me fix a pesky routing bug that insisted I cross over the road I wanted to use instead of just turning.
LOL indeed! You said "There is so much to learn!". I think there is less for you than you think. I regret that I didn't first think about the Direct trick for routing along unpaved stretches as an alternative to messing with profiles.
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Re: setting route preferences inside each planned trip

Post by tombarrington »

I regret that I didn't first think about the Direct trick for routing along unpaved stretches as an alternative to messing with profiles.
The Direct trick worked well for me earlier this year and I think it would be fine closing the small gap in the example route I used in this thread. The area I'm exploring is in the state of Montana and is crisscrossed with dirt roads. I would want as much "routed" as possible so as not to get lost.

@jfheath, you mentioned the XT may learn something from the way it is used. Can you expand? It doesn't seem that smart to me.
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Re: setting route preferences inside each planned trip

Post by Peobody »

tombarrington wrote: 22 Dec 2023 15:28 The Direct trick worked well for me earlier this year and I think it would be fine closing the small gap in the example route I used in this thread.
A frustrating thing about this is that the satellite view in Google Maps shows striping on that stretch of road. Paved/unpaved status is a problem in the Garmin maps. I have been routed along unpaved roads (no fun on a Goldwing) and have had to force routing over paved roads that showed unpaved on the Garmin map.
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Re: setting route preferences inside each planned trip

Post by jfheath »

tombarrington wrote: 22 Dec 2023 15:28 @jfheath, you mentioned the XT may learn something from the way it is used. Can you expand? It doesn't seem that smart to me.
Not really, I'm afraid. Not the way it is used, but the roads that you ride. I have read that it does it. I have observed that if I travel at 50mph on a 60mph road, it will adjust my ETA - seemingly as though it assumes that I will travel at 50mph on 60mph roads all the way to my destination. I have also formed an impression that it learns how fast I ride on particular class of roads. SO that it can better estimate my time of arrival in the future.
But I have zero evidence for this.

I note that on the XT Hidden system menu (10 second press the circular speedo after tapping the speed button onthe map), scroll down to Developer Ino, then down to myTrends Info it is recording statistics on:

History
Routes - broken down itno days of the week - keeping track of which roads I ride. This is so that if it knows that you prefer to ride a particular road, it will choose that road in preference to calculating a 'Faster Time' route.
Route Segments. Haven't got a clue what that records. Mine is empty.
Predictions - not sure.

This sort of thing makes testing the behaviour very awkward - becasue riding a route to test something once when you deviate from the route, can affect the second test as it might assume that you want to go the same way again - so change its behaviour. To avoid this, when testing the RUT routes for example, I had to perform a system reset on my XT prior to each test.

I don't know whether it builds up a profile of off road routes - it seems to be recording routes that go from favourite to favourite for me - but then I use a lot of favourites (saved waypoints) at the moment - becasue I need them to keep their names, and the XT has a habit of changing the names of other route points.

That is as much as I think that I know. And what I think I know could well be wrong.

ONe other factor is that the maps have historic data about traffic and speeds. So on the Zumo 590, you would get a different route suggested on Wednesday 5pm from what it would suggest on Sunday morning. TrafficTrends, they called it. That data is still in the maps, but whether the XT still uses it, I don't know.

I don't know if there is anything in this section that is of any use. app.php/ZXT-P69

It is a desktop analysis of what goes on with off road routing and some wasy I found of getting round some issues. Its about 3 years old, and I haven't revisited it. But its got pretty pictures and some plotting of off road routes using Basecamp.
Of course, the mapping data could be wrong. Last year, one of the side roads leading to my house could no longer be used. It wouldn't navigate me along it. I got on line to access the map data (which anyone can do). Someone clearly didn't like traffic going down that road, and decided to put electronic bollards across it !! And that is reflected on the Zumo maps. Maybe someone has put a locked gate where you gap is !!!
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