Travel planning tips – Basecamp and Zumo XT

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Re: Travel planning tips – Basecamp and Zumo XT

Post by Peobody »

jfheath wrote: 09 May 2022 12:24 For the XT I use Waypoints for most of my route points now. ...
I change all of them to Shaping points. Then I choose s few (3-5) that I want to be stopping places and switch those back to Via Points.
Is there a way to change Waypoints to Shaping points or Shaping points to Waypoints in Basecamp en masse?
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Re: Travel planning tips – Basecamp and Zumo XT

Post by jfheath »

Shaping points to Via Points . Yes.

Shaping points to Waypoints? No. Not that I have found.

I've often wondered about writing a php program for a website that would do this. Garmin Waypoints appear twice in the gpx file. Once as a declaration, once as a route point.

It only needs the route point to be edited and a matching declaration to be added at the start.

BUT it's a lot of effort and I don't think that I would use it.
It might be easier to peek into the Basecamp database. But I've never even looked to see if it is a standard SQL structure. It might be. But then for anyone to use it they would need to have MySql set up and running on their computer.

All fun stuff. But I've got too much other fun stuff to do.

It's easier to make your waypoints first.

Today, I discovered something really important. I found another way that doesn't work.
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Re: Travel planning tips – Basecamp and Zumo XT

Post by Peobody »

:(
When you said that you changed all of your Waypoints to Shaping points and then selectively turned some back to Waypoints I had high hopes that there was a way to change Waypoints to Shaping points other than one at a time.

What are your thoughts about creating Waypoints for stops, generating a route using those waypoints, and then using the Insert tool to form that route as desired? I have been discouraged from doing so by fellows riders who use Basecamp because only the Waypoints can be selected should you need to return to a route. Neither of those guys had a device that had the "Closest point" option like the XT does so maybe their thinking was relevant to their devices but not to the XT.
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Re: Travel planning tips – Basecamp and Zumo XT

Post by jfheath »

Peobody wrote: 09 May 2022 17:12 :(
When you said that you changed all of your Waypoints to Shaping points and then selectively turned some back to Waypoints I had high hopes that there was a way to change Waypoints to Shaping points other than one at a time.
Ah, yes I did say that first statement. That was because every single route point in my route had been created as a Waypoint first. So in that context I was correct. I was being deliberately provocative as I know that some people think of Waypoints as being Via Points and don't realise that a Waypoint can be made into a non-alerting Shaping Point.

I didn't say that I turned them back to Wapoints. I said that I turned them back to Via Points!

If a point is created as a Waypoint it is always a waypoint.
If it is used in a route it is ALSO either a Via Point or a Shaping Point.

I like to take every opportunity to dispel the myth that waypoint=routepoint and that waypoint=via point.
But I know that you know that !


Peobody wrote: 09 May 2022 17:12 What are your thoughts about creating Waypoints for stops, generating a route using those waypoints, and then using the Insert tool to form that route as desired? I have been discouraged from doing so by fellows riders who use Basecamp because only the Waypoints can be selected should you need to return to a route. Neither of those guys had a device that had the "Closest point" option like the XT does so maybe their thinking was relevant to their devices but not to the XT.
Well, thats not a bad idea, but if the reason that they gave you that "only Waypoints can be selected should you need to return to a route" is wrong.

This would be when you tap Go and you are asked to select the next destination from a list. Whichever point you select, the Zumos (39x, 59x and XT) will navigate you to that point and then continue navigating your route from there.

But it isn't the Waypoints that the Zumo lists. Its the Via Points.

Understanding these different types of point is fundamental to understanding how the Zumo behaves when navigating, that you can form a pretty accurate opinion about whether to take notice of what someone is telling you - because if they don't realise that these terms are important, they won't have a chance of working out what is happening when you go off route and miss a via point.

The same people will then tell you that you have to use lots of route points to pin the route to your preferred roads. You don't. It works, but it stops it from being a satnav.

Your friends clearly think that a Via Point and a Waypoint are the same thing.


On the 590 I used to create just 5 Waypoints. Start, end and 3 stopping places. All the others were inserted into the route to make it follow particular roads. Maybe 3 points between each stopping place, but it varies.
I would then name all of them. I like to have the day number and a milage number at the start of each point, especially if I dont know the roads or the places. I set the trip meter at the start of each day. I then have some way of knowing which point comes next, should I ever lose my place in the route.

But the XT and the 595 scuppered this. The names I gave sometimes (often) get changed by the Zumo to something else. So my mileage value is not present. So when I look at the route list, or when it says 'Skip Wainmans Clough', I havent got a clue where that is. If it said the name that I gave it "03 123 A65 after Ingleton" that is really helpful. especially if I look at my trip and see that it shows 135 miles. The point is behind me.

Today, I discovered something really important. I found another way that doesn't work.
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Re: Travel planning tips – Basecamp and Zumo XT

Post by Peobody »

jfheath wrote: 09 May 2022 20:58 Your friends clearly think that a Via Point and a Waypoint are the same thing.
Actually, they believe that once you change a Waypoint to a non-alerting point that it is not available to select as a destination on the device similar to points created using the insert function. I have never tried to route to a non-alerting Waypoint nor have I ever looked to see if they are in the Saved (Favourites) list.

They believe a lot of Waypoints are required to insure the integrity of the route in the event of a recalc. I agree with them on that.
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Re: Travel planning tips – Basecamp and Zumo XT

Post by Fxwheels »

Peobody wrote: 09 May 2022 22:08
jfheath wrote: 09 May 2022 20:58 Your friends clearly think that a Via Point and a Waypoint are the same thing.
Actually, they believe that once you change a Waypoint to a non-alerting point that it is not available to select as a destination on the device similar to points created using the insert function. I have never tried to route to a non-alerting Waypoint nor have I ever looked to see if they are in the Saved (Favourites) list.

They believe a lot of Waypoints are required to insure the integrity of the route in the event of a recalc. I agree with them on that.
I'm pretty sure that when they say "waypoints" they mean shaping points. Right, these points which you shape the route based on, so Garmin will stick to the planned route. These are non-alert points and are a blue dots in Garmin.

Now, the alert points do become via points with the orange flag in Zumo. You want to use them only if you deferentially want to stop there like a place for lunch or place to visit, but you don't want to use them in order to shape the route because (not only it will annoy you by announcing them) but also if by mistake you placed it few meters off the road, Garmin will insist you to go there making a u-turn etc... until the message pops up if to skip it, and then Garmin will recalculate the route again, and again.

Now - I hear your complain about a way to get back to the route somewhere in the middle and therefore using these via points as a reference point. The old Nuvi will just ask you if you want to start from the beginning or not "Y/N". If you choose "N", in this case Nuvi will lead you to the route closest entry. For some weird reason this code wasn't carried over to Zumo. In the XT it seems as they added that function however in 396 still nothing. I did complained to Garmin and they added it as a "suggestion", whatever that means.

When using 396 I normally ride to the magenta line or the track (which I run under it) by looking at the map, and then start navigating when on it. Yes it can be a pain. You need to stop, find the route, look for the ways of getting there, visually navigating... Or, if I'm near a shaping point, I can convert it to a via point (by clicking on a blue ring) and start from it. Problem can be that you may not know which shaping point you're near as the x-ref names are not in the list. Yes major PITA. Moreover, you can't even drop a pin (no such option).

396 has another bug: if there are many shaping points and you want to drop another one on your route, the message will pop saying " "Select a valid location" even if it is on the route or a road and it's 100% valid. I've complained to Garmin about it, but it's like knocking on a brick wall.

Sure, you can put many via points in order to use them as a reference point navigating back on route should you have a need to start somewhere in the middle, but limit is 29 vias and be prepare for the above annoyance. (or just get the XT :))
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Re: Travel planning tips – Basecamp and Zumo XT

Post by jfheath »

Just re-reading, I still see a mis-understanding. Maybe I have confused the issue

Actually you don't change a Waypoint to anything.

Once you have created and saved a Waypoint, it remains a Waypoint.
The Waypoint may then be used in a route. Or just saved for future use - (In the XT this is a 'Favourite' in UK; a 'Saved' in USA)

Other route points are inserted into a route on an ad-hoc basis.

So there are two types of point that will be used to build a route: Waypoints and inserted ad-hoc points.

All points in a route will need to be set as either alerting or not alerting.

If a point is set to alerting, it is a Via Point
If a point is set to not alert it is a Shaping Point

Note that changing a Shaping point to a Via Point is easy to achieve and this works fine.
Changing a Via Point to a Shaping Point however currently has issues. The XT (v6.40 and earlier) and 595 will rename the point and is likely to move it to a different location (my observations suggests that it puts it on a faster road between the two adjacent route points.

Today, I discovered something really important. I found another way that doesn't work.
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Re: Travel planning tips – Basecamp and Zumo XT

Post by rbentnail »

Peobody wrote: 09 May 2022 13:06 Is there a way to change Waypoints to Shaping points or Shaping points to Waypoints in Basecamp en masse?
I'm going to re-ask your question the way I think you are asking it, tell me if I'm correct:

Is there a way to change VIA points (alerting) in a route to SHAPING points (non-alerting), or vice versa, in Base Camp en masse?

The answer is yes. In Base Camp, with the route options box (with the either VIA or SHAPING points listed) open, click on the second one in the list to highlight it. Scroll down to the 2nd to last point in the list and SHIFT+CLICK. This highlights every point between the 2 you picked. Right click, select 'Don't Alert' to change all to SHAPING or 'Alert' for VIA. You can do this for any number of points except the start & destination points.

To pick just a few points, the normal CTRL+CLICK does not work like everywhere else in Windoze but SHIFT+CLICK does, go figure.
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Re: Travel planning tips – Basecamp and Zumo XT

Post by jfheath »

rbentnail wrote: 10 May 2022 10:41 I'm going to re-ask your question the way I think you are asking it, tell me if I'm correct:

Is there a way to change VIA points (alerting) in a route to SHAPING points (non-alerting), or vice versa, in Base Camp en masse?

The answer is yes. In Base Camp, with the route options box (with the either VIA or SHAPING points listed) open, click on the second one in the list to highlight it. Scroll down to the 2nd to last point in the list and SHIFT+CLICK. This highlights every point between the 2 you picked. Right click, select 'Don't Alert' to change all to SHAPING or 'Alert' for VIA. You can do this for any number of points except the start & destination points.

To pick just a few points, the normal CTRL+CLICK does not work like everywhere else in Windoze but SHIFT+CLICK does, go figure.
That is absolutely correct, Russ.

Today, I discovered something really important. I found another way that doesn't work.
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Re: Travel planning tips – Basecamp and Zumo XT

Post by Peobody »

Wow, it took me waaaay to long to figure out that I had to double-click on a route and then work inside of that box, what Russ referred to as the "route options" box. I have always set Waypoints to Shaping points from within the lower left pane of the main Basecamp window. The Shift-Click technique does not work there even when the selected range of Waypoints includes ones in a route and does not include the begin or end points.

Thanks Russ for the details that led to the "Aha!" moment and jfheath for sticking with me until I finally figured it out!
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