Loading BC GPX files into XT3

[biglew55]

Everything updated to the latest versions.

Is the route in Basecamp recalculated using the same map that's loaded on the XT? on mine it's 2027.1, for instance.

[raza]

The same. I always use the same versions of maps.

[Peobody]

I am curious whether replacing that shaping point with a non-alerting via point would make any difference. To test this I would delete that shaping point, add a route point in that same spot using the 'New Waypoint' tool, add that point to the route, change it to non-alerting, recalculate, then export and transfer to the XT3.

[smfollen]

non-alerting via point is just Basecamp's name for a shaping point. They are the same thing.
Just one example of confusing terminology by Garmin.

[Peobody]

non-alerting via point is just Basecamp's name for a shaping point. They are the same thing.
Just one example of confusing terminology by Garmin.

Agreed, but haven't we confirmed different behavior when a point is created as a Via compared to one created with one of the shaping methods that is not a via? The New Waypoint tool insures it is first created as a Via whereas the shaping methods can produce a route point that is not a Via.

Keep in mind that my experience is with the XT for which a lot has been posted about relocated shaping points, something that I have experienced only once, perhaps because most of my route points are first created with the New Waypoint tool. I thought it would be an interesting test to see if the XT3 moved a route point located in the same spot that was a non-alerting Via (a shaping that started its life as a Via).

[smfollen]

@Peobody Yes there are certainly differences between via points and shaping points and there are multiple ways to create each of them. It never hurts to experiment but in the end, routes are always made up of route points, which can be either of two types - via or shaping.

Basecamp, confusingly, refers to them as "Via Points" and "Via Points" that "Don't Alert on Arrival (shaping points):.

BC points.png (41.91 KiB) Viewed 573 times

In a gpx file they are always route points (rtept) with an extension indicating which type.

Code: Select all

    <rtept lat="42.179555632174015" lon="-71.29621272906661">
      <name>131 South St</name>
      <extensions>
        <trp:ViaPoint>
        </trp:ViaPoint>
...
    <rtept lat="42.142107719555497" lon="-71.311622355133295">
      <name>Seekonk St</name>
      <extensions>
        <trp:ShapingPoint />

Editing points, especially shaping points, on the zumo can cause them to move, and syncing to the Explore database via the Tread App (XT2 and XT3) can also. That is another whole can of worms.

[jfheath]

I am curious whether replacing that shaping point with a non-alerting via point would make any difference. To test this I would delete that shaping point, add a route point in that same spot using the 'New Waypoint' tool, add that point to the route, change it to non-alerting, recalculate, then export and transfer to the XT3.

I think there is a mis-understanding here - which I will explain. But I will also go on to describe what happens when you use a Waypoint as part of a route and set it as either a Via or Shaping point in a route.

Creating a location with the 'New Waypoint' tool. I assume that this is within Basecamp ?

A Waypoint is neither a shaping point or a via point **. It is a saved location which can be given a name (and a whole load of other properties) that simply marks a spot on a map for future reference. It exists without being placed in a route, and can be displayed on the Zumo screen without having a route active. Waypoints can have their own icon and since the Explore database was used with the XT1 , XT2 and I assume the XT3 - a wider range of smaller coloured icons could be assigned to individual saved Waypoints.

** Almost all Facebook Zumo forums and all MRA users will disagree with this statement. They are wrong as far as Zumos are concerned. Garmin use the term waypoint in the way that the term is used in the specifications for GPX file formats. Via points and shaping points are terms that (I believe) have been defined by Garmin.

On the XT1 and XT2 - to view waypoints on the map, 'up ahead places' had to be ticked in the map display options. Unfortunately, this made visible three other categories of data, which cluttered up the map - so I would set my own searches for those three categories 'xxx', 'yyy', and 'zzz' to ensure that nothing else was found ! I cannot comment on the XT3.

A Route Point is a generic term for a point in a route. Garmin rarely uses the phrase, but the term is used extensivley in the gpx files :<rtept>.
The route will pass through all of the route points that you create.
On the Zumo, visible route points can be one of two types - either Via or Shaping:

• Via Points are marked on the Zumo as orange flags. The Zumo will alert on approach and arrival. They mark the beginning and end of a segment of a route.
• Shaping Points are marked as small blue discs on the zumo screen. They do not alert on approach and arrival. Historically, they fix the route in place - but since the XT2, the Zumos have taken liberties with their position - shifting them onto different roads in order to make the route between via points fit the routing preferences - eg Faster.

Waypoints may be used within a route. If you place a waypoint in a route, then they retain their other waypoint properties (name, address, postcode telephone number etc) but as a point in the route, they are treated as either a shaping point or as a via point. You can set it to either.
If you use a saved waypoints in a route, then the waypoint retain its name and location - whether it is set as a shaping point or as a via point.

However Since the XT2 - the route may be altered even if Waypoints have been used as Via or Shaping points. In this case the Waypoint stays in place and the route may no longer pass through it. The Via points may be given a different name obtained from a database and often has the 3 letter county code with it. Shaping points are often moved onto 'faster' routes - leaving the original waypoint stranded.

In some recent tests with the XT2 I discovered that it was the synching of the route between the XT2 and the Explore database that resulted in the route point names being moved and altered. However, if you create GPX files, and transfer those, then the processing of the GPX files results in locations being 'looked up' in a database. The location rarely changed substantially, but the route point names did.

If Tread was not involved, then using Waypoints for all route points and setting some to shaping and some to via points, resulted in none of the route point names being altered and none of the route points being repositioned.

When using TripManager - (again without synch being enabled) - then route point names and locations are retained whether or not they were created as waypoints.

(I use 'faster' as that is often the routing preferences that is set. But other preferences are also available).

Garmin have knuckled down with their use of the term 'Waypoint'. They used to call them 'Favourites' or 'Saved' in the Zumos from the 590 up to and including the XT1. Which is odd - because Basecamp always used the term 'Waypoint'.

[smfollen]

Thanks for that explanation @jfheath. I hope I'm adding further clarification here, rather than further confusion

Via points and shaping points are terms that (I believe) have been defined by Garmin.

Yes, Garmin has defined several extensions to the gpx file standard. Via and shaping points are defined here: https://www8.garmin.com/xmlschemas/TripExtensionsv1.xsd

... when you use a Waypoint as part of a route ...
...
Waypoints may be used within a route. If you place a waypoint in a route, ...

Just to be clear, at least as far as Basecamp and gpx files go, when you use a waypoint to create a point in a route (whether via or shaping), information is copied from the waypoint to create a route point. The waypoint itself does not become part of the route. In a gpx file, routes are always made up of route points, never waypoints. The gpx file exported from Basecamp will contain both the waypoint(s), which stand alone, and the route point(s) which make up the route.

It is certainly interesting that, on the zumo, route points created from waypoints are less susceptible to moving and renaming. Perhaps the zumo's internal file system is doing something different than, or in addition, to what Basecamp and gpx files do?

@jfheath Do you know if routes made from waypoints are less susceptible to change if created with Basecamp and imported, or only if created on the zumo?

[jfheath]

You are quite correct about using a Waypoint in a route - Basecamp never actually puts a waypoint in a route, it defines the waypoint at the start of the gpx file and it uses exactly the same coordinates and name to represent the route point as a via or shaping.

I have noted that routes created using waypoint data tend to keep their location and names when imported from a gpx file - as long as Tread is not allowed to synch. Even then, via points are less susceptible to change. Shaping points processed by the Tread app, all get the name ‘shaping point’ and may be relocated.

My interpretation of Tread is that it treats the Via Points as being the locations that it must pass through. The shaping points are there to pin the route to the Garmin’s calculated route based on the routing preferences specified. If it calculates a route between vias using the set preferences then it feels free to move your shaping points - I believe that it thinks that IT has placed them.

In other words, routes are no longer about Vias and Shaping points, they are about Via Points and the various routing preferences and preferred road types. It is probably significant to see that the Garmin support pages no longer have a definition for a shaping point. The old definitions have gone.

Basecamp masks the route point changes because the XTs still honour the ghost points - the gpxx route point extensions - and the route will not be recalculated unless something happens to suggest it should.

Some changes to the route points take place during the import process ie the Zumo has the gpx file saved, but the Zumo has to be told to import it. This is before Tread gets to see it.

I cannot understand why route points made from waypoints are not affected by this import step - unless it is to do with the fact that waypoints are imported and stored first. So when the gpx file is imported and the lat, long coordinates are used to look up known locations, it treats its stored waypoints as known locations. That seems feasible. Whether or not it is right, I do not know.


I have assumed that when you said ‘less susceptible to change’ that you meant changes to the route points.
However, if you meant that changes to the route behaviour eg if you press skip, you can end up with RUT behaviour. The use of waypoints doesn’t affect that.
Routes built on the Zumo itself are not affected. Routes that are imported and then resaved or copied are not affected. Routes transferred by trip manager are not affected.

The Zumo seems to have two types of routes. The old type where the via and shaping points were fixed, and the route must be calculated to pass through each point in turn. If you miss a point you will be navigated back to it - unless you miss a shaping point and you rejoin the original route.

The new type of route - which was designed to allow tracks to be navigated. Convert track to a trip. It has no route points, so if you go off route, the satnav has only two options - navigate to the end or rejoin the route ahead at the closest point to your current location. On the XTs, when a traditional route is recalculated -eg by using ‘Skip’, even though there are still route points on the route, the navigation algorithm changes to one very much like that used by tracks that have been converted to trips. Miss a route point, the closest entry point is targeted, and the missed route point is removed from the map. Tap skip to see where the route is heading next, and it is obvious that the list is no longer updated. Every route point you have visited is still in the list.

This doesn’t happen on routes created on Zumo itself. Neither does it happen if the mImported flag is set to 0.

If you want to quiz me about this stuff, maybe a video chat would be useful ? It’s easier to stop me mid-flow to tease out the fine detail. Also, I can only quote from my experience and testing, and if I say something that I regard as a fact, and you have info that suggests that is not the case - then being able to raise a red flag at the time and tease it out - that would be useful to both of us.

[FrankB]

I cannot understand why route points made from waypoints are not affected by this import step - unless it is to do with the fact that waypoints are imported and stored first. So when the gpx file is imported and the lat, long coordinates are used to look up known locations, it treats its stored waypoints as known locations. That seems feasible. Whether or not it is right, I do not know.

It has always been my assumption that when the 'Waypoint gets copied in the route by BaseCamp' the <Subclass> in the created route point is set to 'Direct Routing'.

Code: Select all

<gpxx:Subclass>000000000000FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF</gpxx:Subclass> 

From my experience with TripManager I know (for sure) that whenever the Subclass of the route point is set to that value the XT1, XT2 XT3 will not rename them.

A quick test with 2 waypoints and 1 route this morning confirmed that. Of course this quick test could have been a coincidence, but it seems pretty likely.

@DT1832
As for the original question. Have a look at this post: viewtopic.php?t=3723 That are my notes on loading BaseCamp routes onto the XT3.