Zumo XT2 - Making it Work for You

[Wenzudeg]

I am just wondering... I know it is not ideal but what happens if ALL route points are Via Points instead of using Shaping Points to 'lock' the route, apart from getting an alert when navigating the route?

[Oop North John]

I am just wondering... I know it is not ideal but what happens if ALL route points are Via Points instead of using Shaping Points to 'lock' the route, apart from getting an alert when navigating the route?

That's the method I use. Occasionally the via point becomes an "area". It seems to be in the same position, but has lost the name I gave to it. Usually my via points are POI's eg a fuel station / viewpoint so if the via is only to force the XT2 onto a road, I'll preface the location with SP xxx, ie "shaping Point xxx. I think traffic sees beyond the next via and I use the method of selecting the bar at the top of the screen to see via points / traffic on the route / map as an easy way to keep a overview of the route, plus it's an easy way to skip a via point.

Very occasionally, I still use shaping points but with care. If you have a slower road, and place a shaping point on it when its running parallel with the faster one, then invariably Tread / XT2 makes the shaping point jump onto the unwanted faster road. But if there's no realistic alternative then the shaping point might move slightly, but it'll still have the same effect.

[jfheath]

I am just wondering... I know it is not ideal but what happens if ALL route points are Via Points instead of using Shaping Points to 'lock' the route, apart from getting an alert when navigating the route?

Nothing - not immediately. And it is different according to whether you are using the XT1 or XT2. Your question relates to the XT2 and is in the XT2 section so this answer relates mstly to that.

The Tread App or the Sync with Tread process WILL move your route points and rename them. It moves shaping points much more dramatically. Via points tend to move to the nearest known location, but often the change makes very little different to the route. Via point changes - I have never seen them to be moved onto a road that is not on the calculated route. Shaping points are often shifted onto the road between via points that satisfy the routing algorithm that I have selected - Faster, Adventurous, Michelin Scenic etc.

I have observed, but not yet proved, that the up ahead features that can be displayed on the map screen (eg traffic delays, road closures) do not extend beyond the next Via Point. So if that is correct and you have a lot of Via Pointt say every 3 miles, the Zumo will not be able to warn you of road closures 5 miles ahead.

The trip data that can be displayed at the side of the screen can show distance to the next Via Point and ETA, duration to the next Via. I like to use these so that my pillion can see how far to go before the next scheduled stop. Then if too cold, too tired, too hungry etc and 40 minutes before the next stop, she can let me know and we can find another place earlier. You cannot do this if every route point is a Via Point. My routes usually have via points for just the stopping places. Everything else is a shaping point.

It is possible that in some circumstances (which I have proved), the Via point is shifted slightly. Eg you put a Via at the place where you will get off your bike on arriving at a particular hotel. The Zumo (Tread or Synch) will shift that to the front door of the hotel (say). You cannot always park outside the front door of a hotel, which is why you plotted the car park around the back. I used a hotel in Ely to test this. The front door is on a mian street, very narrow, no stopping, nowhere to park. Except 20metres around the corner. But that road is a one way street. To get to it, you have to go around the town and get to the car park from the opposite direction. So that sort of behaviour can be particularly irritating.

Using a Waypoint and adding that to the route doesn't change the behaviour. The Via point moves, that becomes the end of the route, leaving the waypoint as a location that is no longer on the route itself.

There are two possible scenarios:

1) The route is imported and is not 'fixed' - ie it is not RUT-proof.
2) The route is 'Saved' and is fixed - ie it is RUT proof.

I'm not going to go into RUT behaviour here - just to point out that behaviour is different between imported and saved routes.

If the route is Imported, then if you miss shaping points or via points, the satnav looks ahead to the closest point on the route, finds a way to that and continues navigating through the remaining route points from there. It is a bit like choosing closest entry point when starting a route.
Via or Shaping - it makes no difference. Go off route, it will ignore any points that are plotted between you and what it decides is the 'closest' entry point. Garmin's definition of 'closest' applies here. In other words, having Vias doesn't guarantee the route in this situation.

Enough. There are other considerations and ways to fix all of these and the above to make the XT2 behave more like the 590:

0) Reinstall Tread and XT2 without enabling synch.
1) Copy the imported route using the XT2 screen option is one way.
2) Transfer the route to the XT2 using Trip Manager removes all of the issues listed here, and I can go back to using Vias for stops and shaping points everywhere else.

[Wenzudeg]

Thanks! Am getting a clearer picture now while waiting for device to be back at dealer.

With the XT2, the Tread App or the Synch process with Tread WILL move your route points and rename them. It moves shaping points much more dramatically than it does Via Points. Via points tend to move to the nearest known location, but often the change makes very little different to the route. I have never seen them be moved onto a road that is not on the calculated route. Shaping points are shifted onto the road between via points that satisfy the routing algorithm that you have selected - Faster, Adventurous, Michelin Scenic etc.

I have observed, but not yet proved, that the up ahead feature that can be displayed on the map screen (eg traffic delays, road closures) do not extend beyond the next Via Point. So if you have a lot of Via Points - say one every 3 miles, the Zumo will not be able to warn you of road closures 5 miles ahead.

The trip data that can be displayed at the side of the screen can show distance to the next Via Point and ETA / duration to the next Via. I like to use these so that my pillion can see how far to go before the next scheduled stop. Then if she is too cold, too tired, too hungry etc and it is still 40 minutes before the next stop, she can let me know and we can find another place earlier. You cannot do this if every route point is a Via Point. My routes usually have via points for just the stopping places. Everything else is a shaping point.

It is possible that in some circumstances (which I have proved), the Via point is shifted slightly in such a way that it does affect your route. Eg you put a Via at the place where you will get off your bike on arriving at a particular hotel. The Zumo (using Tread or with Synch enabled) will shift that via point to the front door of the hotel (say). You cannot always park outside the front door of a hotel, which is why you plotted the car park around the back. I used a hotel in Ely to test this. The front door is on a mian street, very narrow, no stopping, nowhere to park. Except around the corner 20 metres away. But that road is a one way street. To get to it, you have to go around the town and get to the car park from the opposite direction. So that sort of behaviour can be particularly irritating.

Using a Waypoint and adding that to the route doesn't change the behaviour. The Via point moves, that becomes the end of the route, leaving the waypoint as a marked location that is no longer visited bt the route itself.

Resolution: NO Tread Synch of anything related to Waypoints, Routes, Via or Shaping Points.

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If the route is Saved, or is imported and has been set as Saved, then all Via Points must be visited. If you go past one, the satnav will take you back to it, and it will always demand that you visit the Via point regardless of what you do. Unless you skip it. If you skip it, the route will recalculate and find a new way through each of the remaining route points. With shaping points, the same will happen - except, if you miss one or more shaping points, although it will keep trying to navigate you back to the first missed pont, if you rejoin the magenta line after the missed shaping points, it will carry on navigating ahead as if nothing had happened. With saved routes, this happens whether or not skip has been pressed. This is all what I have come to expect as normal behaviour.

Almost logical... ALMOST. IMO to be 100% logical device must treat Imported Routes the same way it treats Saved Routes.

If the route is Imported, then if you miss shaping points or via points, the satnav looks ahead for the closest point on the route, it finds a way to that and continues navigating through the remaining route points from there. It is a bit like choosing closest entry point when starting a route.
Via or Shaping - it makes no difference. Go off route, it will ignore any points that are plotted between you and what it decides is the 'closest' entry point. Garmin's definition of 'closest' applies here. In other words, having Vias doesn't guarantee the route in this situation.

Almost logical... again, ALMOST. To be 100% logical device must continue to navigate to Next Via Point to be visited or, better still, give these options: Continue to Next Via and Continue to Closest Entry Point.

Resolution: Plan routes on device; Import routes on device and fool it by navigating a Saved copy; Import routes through Trip Manager.

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I know that the above was aptly explained numerous times (and I apologise for repeating) but wanted to be clearer on the situation.

Thanks @jfheath!

[jfheath]

Good summary. Three responses to your three comment, taken in order:

1. Do not allow Tread to synch or save data at all.

2. I agree. But from Garmin’s point of view, Any gpx file is regarded as ‘suspect’ and likely to require an ‘adjustment’ to be made to the location of route points, because people tend to use different maps, different routing programs, less common sense - when placing route points. The only software that uses identical maps is Basecamp and Garmin repeatedly say the XT2 is not supported in Basecamp - so that gives them the right to adjust data in gpx files for all maps, software and different levels of user intelligence.

3. I want routes to navigate to the next Route Point - Via or Shaping. Not just to the next Via point. I use shaping points sparingly - I want the route to pass through it, but it is not my next destination or my next stopping place.

[Wenzudeg]

Apologies if these questions are in the wrong thread.

1) I agree with jfheath's suggestions that the best place to put Routes, Tracks and Waypoints are in the SD card. Is this the best possible workflow:

Basecamp > Export to computer desktop as .gpx > Use Trip Manager to dress them up as Saved > Send them to SD Card which is ALREADY in XT2... and then what? Am I correct in thinking that from the SD card they have to be imported in what jfheath names Active Memory? If yes, would they then 'undress' the Saved skin and XT will treat them as Imported?

OR this

Basecamp > Export to computer desktop as .gpx > Use Trip Manager to dress them up as Saved > Send them to Internal Memory of XT2

2) I have tried to work with Collections on Garmin Explore (synching with a Garmin GPSMAP 67 which I use for hiking) with varying levels of success. With Basecamp I usually create a Folder according to the 'vehicle' I will be using. So I have a folder for my Transalp, another folder for my NC, another for Toyota, another for Hikes and so on. In the folder I create a List which contains all the Routes, Tracks and Waypoints useable on that trip. So, for example, I have a list named NC 2024 April, another list named NC 2025 Sep and so on. When I am happy with planning on the desktop I send the list to device, after clearing past logs, routes, tracks, favourites, etc from it to have a clean slate. In this scenario, what would make sense the most: to create a Collection to do the work of the BC Folder (in my workflow, all trips related to a particular vehicle, so a Collection for EVERY vehicle) or to create a Collection to do the work of the BC List (in my workflow, info related to a particular trip, so a Collection for EVERY trip)?

TIA

[jfheath]

Apologies if these questions are in the wrong thread.

1) I agree with jfheath's suggestions that the best place to put Routes, Tracks and Waypoints are in the SD card. Is this the best possible workflow:

Basecamp > Export to computer desktop as .gpx > Use Trip Manager to dress them up as Saved > Send them to SD Card which is ALREADY in XT2... and then what? Am I correct in thinking that from the SD card they have to be imported in what jfheath names Active Memory? If yes, would they then 'undress' the Saved skin and XT will treat them as Imported?

Yes, what you say is correct. But there are two completely different methods here: Using Trip Manager or using gpx files transferred to the XT2/GPX folder.

If you use Trip Manager (which I thoroughly recommend) then it doesn't go through the same 'transfer/import process as normal GPX files.
The GPX file stays on your computer. Trip Manager processes it and it builds the .trip file that the Zumo uses in order to navigate. (That is located in the hidden .System folder in Internal Storage). This means that the normal Import process NEVER sees the original gpx file. Therefore it cannot change its contents, cannot change the route point names or shift them to a different location.

If you wish to put the gpx files onto the SD card - eg as a backup - then when you want to get those routes etc into the XT2, you have to use the original 'import' method to get the route ready to navigate.

The Zumo processes the contents of the gpx file sometime between it being transferred by the USB cable to Internal Storage and restarting the XT2 after transfer has completed. That often results in changes to the locations and changes to the names of route points. It then build up its own .trip file. Some other changes take place during this process and it flags it as being an imported route. If you have Tread synch enabled, after a couple of synch cycles the shaping points may be shifted onto what the Zumo decides is a better route. (Info taken from my own observations)

But if you are stuck on a ride and you accidentally delete your route, the .trip file has gone. So the gpx file is all that you have as a backup, unless you carry a laptop with you. Having a track of the route is a big boon in those circumstances - but you can still get round the 'imported' issue.

Load the route, click the spanner on the map screen that shows a preview of the route, and select 'Copy'. Give the route a slightly different name and save it. Now on the XT2 screen, load and run the copied route instead of the original.

The copied route has been created by the XT2 - and it is regarded as 'Saved' - so it never displays the RUT behaviour. And it navigates you to each route point in turn; it allows you to ignore a shaping point as long as you rejoin the magenta route afterwards; it never deletes route points if you ignore an instruction; and if you press Skip, it removes the next route point from the route and navigates to the next. Nothing else disappears and RUT behaviour is not triggered the next time you deviate from the route.

It is not as good as the route that TripManager creates - in that you still have to put up with name changes and slight variations to route point locations - but that has been going on since the Zumo 595. But it gets rid of the big RUT behaviour issue.

A similar operation can be carried out on the XT1 for imported routes - not quite as simple, but easy enough.

[Francis]

...
1) I agree with jfheath's suggestions that the best place to put Routes, Tracks and Waypoints are in the SD card. Is this the best possible workflow:
Basecamp > Export to computer desktop as .gpx > Use Trip Manager to dress them up as Saved > Send them to SD Card which is ALREADY in XT2... and then what? Am I correct in thinking that from the SD card they have to be imported in what jfheath names Active Memory? If yes, would they then 'undress' the Saved skin and XT will treat them as Imported?
OR this
Basecamp > Export to computer desktop as .gpx > Use Trip Manager to dress them up as Saved > Send them to Internal Memory of XT2
...

Why? BaseCamp says it's not compatible with XT2, but it allows you to copy a route directly from BaseCamp to XT2 and does it.
Exporting via the desktop on a laptop is like scratching your left ear with your right hand

[Wenzudeg]

Sending from BC directly to XT2 forces device to recalculate. Even a 5km route gets recalculated differently than what BC recalculates.

Senfing them to Trip Manager to dress the routes as Saved rather than importing them fools tge device into thinking that they have been planned on it and subsequently does not recalculate and leaves routes as planned in BC.

Jfheath and others here will surely explain in much more detail than me.

[jfheath]

Sending from BC directly to XT2 forces device to recalculate. Even a 5km route gets recalculated differently than what BC recalculates.

Thanks @Wenzudeg. That behaviour is often observed I agree - but the conclusion that is drawn is not correct.
Loading a Basecamp route into the Zumo XT2 does not force the route to be recalculated - but you do have to make sure that.

• You have used the same maps in Basecamp that you have installed on the XT2.
• All of your route points are accurately placed in valid locations - on a road for example, rather than in a field next to a road.
• That you have not altered your navigation preferences recently. Once that flag is set - it is likely that the Zumo will always recalculate - since Basecamp does not have the same routing preferences as the XT2.
• That you put the GPX file onto the SD card.

So with a freshly reset Zumo XT2, I thought that I had better verify this before I typed it up.
So here is a route that I created in Basecamp. It has no Waypoints, but has 7 route points :-

4 Via Points including the start and the end point
4 Shaping points all positioned deliberately to make the route longer.

I made a track of the route and sent this the the XT2, and set it to black. You can see the black track peeping out from the edge of the magenta route. There has been no change to the route.

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What I did and what the Zumo did to get the route started was as follows.

Apps -> Routes -> 3-dot menu -> Import -and I chose to Import the route and the Track from the gpx file.

I was offered the opportunity to put these into a collection - so I created a collection called 'Original' and selected that. I set the clolour of the track to be black and made that collection visible and no other collections were visible (no other collection existed at this point).

The Zumo did not calculate anything on import. It usually says 'Calculating' - but don't be fooled by that - It doesn't meant that it is caclualting the route. Not necessarily anyway. It usually means that it is doing other stuff - like creating the trip file or stripping out waypoints and tracks from the gpx file. But my routes were placed ont eh SD card, and it doesn't automatically import. Nither does it strip out information from the GPX file if the gpx file is placed on the SD card.

I selected the route, and after a very short delay, the map showing the route was displayed on the screen. That is the picture above.

Then I slected 'Go!' and chose my first route point in response to the prompt to 'Select Next Destination'.

A messgae came up saying 'Calculating'. 0% stayed ont he screen for about 5 seconds and the map reappeared - this time with a start button. No changes were made to the route.

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Now - just based on that test, I cannot definitley say that the route has not been recalculated. If it had been recacluated, then the route points are in such a position that ti would be difficult to plot any other route.

No that is not proof at all. I certainly would not be convinced by it. This is an intitial test to see what happens.

You see Basecamp prepares a GPX file with Waypoints (although I didn't use any), shping points and via points. Shaping points appear ont he Zumo screen and blue discs. Via Points are shown as orange flags. But Basecamp also sends what I call 'ghost points' - they appear in the gpx file with the tag <gpxx:rtept . In this particular 45 mile route there were Just under 1000 of these additional invisible route points. If the ZUmo has these, and other conditions are met, the XT2 does not recalculate the route at all - it just uses what Basecamp has sent it.

BAsecamp has a feature that allows you to delete all of the shaping points fromt he route - leaving just the via points in place. It also leaves the ghost points in place - so in theory, if the route is not recalculated, the route will remain exactly as it is - because the ghost points are there still plotting the planned route. So my second test was to do exactly the same thing - but this time I have selected the option to strip out shaping points.

48081.png (325.94 KiB) Viewed 830 times

This time, I made the track red so that I did not confuse the screen shots. You can still see the read outline to the route. Even without the shaping points, the route is plotted where I intended it to go. Therefor it has not been recalculated. If it had - it would certainly not have taken that loop north between the west and east via points on the A59.

So in an attempt to prove that, after setting the route going, I pressed skip, and agreed to select the next route point. That removes the route point from the list and recalculates the entire route. It still uses the remaining route points to do this, but it will probably come up with different roads. Certianly in this case as there are no shaping points.

61537.png (361.15 KiB) Viewed 830 times

The result demonstrated that the previous screen shot had not had the route recalculated. The magenta route takes a different route the the first Via (orange flag). It then continues along the A59 to the East. What is a surprise to me is that it has discared the original end point and moved it to where the next via point was. That looks like a programming error to me. It has removed the end via point not the next one.

Sending them to Trip Manager to dress the routes as Saved rather than importing them fools the device into thinking that they have been planned on it and subsequently does not recalculate and leaves routes as planned in BC.

No.

Trip Manager is best explained by @FrankB - but I'll do my best.

Usually when the ZumXT2 gets a GPX file, it messes around with the route points. Some sort of fuzzy logic.

XT2: "Whats this point in the gpx file here ? It appear to be on an old B2345 B road, but there is a motorway 200metres over there. Maybe it is misplaced." And it moves the point onto the motorway and renames it to the M37. (say).

Which is a bit annoying.

That happens when a gpx file is imported. The XT2 reads the GPX files - does weird stuff with it and builds a .Trip file with a version of the route that it can actually use. It never looks at the GPX file again. It just uses the trip file which is considerately called (say) 1139156098.trip

What Trip Manager does - amongst other things - is to take your GPX file and then builds a trip file itself and puts that trip file into the XT2's hidden System area. The XT2 doesn't get to process the GPX file - it is never put on the XT2, so it doesn't know about it. The XT2 just sees the trip file and treats it as one of its own. So there is no change of route point position and no change of route point names.

But the last time that I looked - a good few weeks ago now, Trip Manager was unable to calculate the route. The XT2 always has to do that for itself. There are so many situations when (seemingly on a whim) that the XT2 will recalculate a route, that it is hardly worth coming working out a route if the Zumo is going to recalculate it anyway.

But Trip Manager also makes the XT2 think the route has been created by itself. And that has other benefits.

I think what you were hinting at is RUT behaviour.

Under certain circumsatnces, the nature of your route changes. Instead of being a point-to- point kind of route, it seems to become a fixed route. If you deviate from the route, it finds the closest point of the route and navigates to that. If you ride past route point without visiting, the route point disappears. That's OK - and it will get you to where you want to go, but not necessarily on the roads that you wanted.

But if you have to wander off route and the only sensible way is to go back to the point where you left the route it starts fumbling in its pocket for sweet wrappers. And it drops a sweet wrapper at where you turned off the route.
Each time you ignore it, it gives a new instruction and drops another sweet wrapper. It is no longer looking ahead - all it is bothered about is you going back and picking up its trail of sweet wrappers.

But this only happens with GPX files created by other programs and imported.
It doesn't happen with routes created on the XT2 screen. It doesn't happen with routes created by Tread. ANd very handy - it doesn't happen with a route imported from a GPX file, if you use the XT2 menus to create a copy of the route and use that.

ANd Trip Manager also carries out the same fix.

But if I wander of my route - I want the Zumo to recalculate - I want it to take me to the next route point up ahead and forget about what I have just missed out. If I need to go back to my original, I always have the track displayed.