Via-point recommendations?

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w2ge
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Via-point recommendations?

Post by w2ge »

In the past, (say Mapsource years, older gps’s such as 550, 660) I religiously dropped via-points at true intersections (road and road), however with the newer generation of gps with the ability to set them to “not announce” on arrival (in BaseCamp), what Is everyone’s thoughts on the proper placement of viapoints?

I’ve never quite understood why some guys adamantly say the viapoints should NOT be on an intersection? :?: ; Other than sometimes I’ve noticed at a corner where there might be a quick left, then right, (etc) depending on my viapoints I sometimes get an instruction missing vocals for one of the turns...

TIA

Phil
Phil - Current VP New Sweden BMW Riders, Past President
Voorhees, NJ
Zumo 396 -> SENA 20s EVO
BMW R1200RT
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sussamb
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Re: Via-point recommendations?

Post by sussamb »

For shaping points I place them wherever needed, without paying too much attention to them. For via points, which I only use if it's essential I visit them (eg fuel or food stop) I place them just before the actual point to give me time to slow down :D
w2ge
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Re: Via-point recommendations?

Post by w2ge »

lol, here we go with “nomenclature” ... what you’re calling shaping points I call viapoints, and what your calling viapoints to me are “Points of Interest“. Interesting and a good idea to place POI before the spot to give you time to slow down.

My understanding , routes shaped by:

1.) WAYPOINT: not a point of interest but I believe contains much of the same programming (vector data, mapset date, etc) *Announced by default.* I use mostly for start and finish.

2.) POI: restaurant, gas station, Scenic overlook that are included in NAVTEQ maps, etc.. *Announced by default.*. (I only use these at somewhere I want to stop at)

3.) VIAPOINT: like a pushpin, ‘pinning‘ your route onto a road and that your gps “wants” to go through(as in “via, this way”). Not announced if placed at true intersection, or can be made to not announce in BaseCamp, if it’s placed along a road... (I understand that now many call these SHAPING POINTS :? )

Back to original question, SUSS, so you place them anywhere (your shaping points), then set them not to announce? How’s that work with “turn directions” from gps?
Phil - Current VP New Sweden BMW Riders, Past President
Voorhees, NJ
Zumo 396 -> SENA 20s EVO
BMW R1200RT
APRILIA Caponord Rally
sussamb
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Re: Via-point recommendations?

Post by sussamb »

Well it doesn't affect the turn by turn guidance as they aren't announced. For nomenclature here is the accepted definition:

POI - A formal Point Of Interest. An entry in the internal POI database with a name, location and usually other information associated with it.

Waypoint - Any arbitrary point on the map that you have designated you want to keep track of. Usually stored in the "Favorites" or "My Locations" or whatever your personal navigation device calls its waypoint storage database. Your device will usually allow you to store such things as the location, any arbitrary name you want to supply and other information such as address, phone number, category(ies) and a symbol/icon to be used when displaying it.

Via Point - A point used to create a multipoint route, e.g. Go from Point A to Point B via some other arbitrary point(s) that you will designate. If your personal navigation device supports multipoint routing, the via point can be a POI, an existing waypoint/favorite or any other form of location that is searchable on your device, e.g. address, intersection/junction, custom POI, etc. In most cases, to use something as a via point it must already exist in one of the devices' searchable databases. It will be announced when you reach it.

Shaping Point - In BaseCamp, to "shape" a route to go exactly where you want there are a couple of methods. Just as with the personal navigation device, you can edit the route's properties to insert Via points (these are not shaping points although they do serve a similar purpose). You can also just use the route tool to click on spots on the map to force the shape of a route. When you do that, you are using a location that is not already in one of the searchable location databases. BaseCamp does not force you to add these points to any of the formal databases. It simply inserts the actual coordinates invisibly into the route. These are shaping points. They are not announced when you reach them.

Shaping points occur in another, automatic, fashion as well. Even when you only designate a two-point route, e.g. go from Point A to Point B, there will usually be multiple places, usually intersections, where a change in direction is required. When building the route, the personal navigation device (or Basecamp) will automatically include all of these points in the route.

To easily illustrate this, you can create a two-point route in BaseCamp by clicking on a Point A and a Point B that will require a few turns to get from one to the other. Now export the route to a GPX file and take a look at it with Notepad or your favorite text editor. You will see that, in addition to the starting point and the ending point, there will be a bunch of other points <rtept> in the file to control all the turns.
w2ge
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Re: Via-point recommendations?

Post by w2ge »

Kk, thanks. Your final paragraph explains why after I create a route and look at properties I see what basecamp calls POINTS, (I never entered those, and never understood that “count”) and I also see in properties my waypoints, etc. are called viapoints. (What I entered).

Kk. Only been creating routes for >15 years and learn something new everyday.
Phil - Current VP New Sweden BMW Riders, Past President
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Zumo 396 -> SENA 20s EVO
BMW R1200RT
APRILIA Caponord Rally
MSTOCK27370
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Re: Via-point recommendations?

Post by MSTOCK27370 »

Phil -

I too go back to MapSource days, but the devices have changed the way that they handle the routes. What used to work, I find is now causing problems in the routes.

I now place all of my points, Via Points and Shaping Points, just AFTER the turn. On newer devices, that support unannounced shaping points, it probably doesn't matter. But for Via Points, which get announced, if you place the via point before the turn, all of the directions and distances just before that turn will be to the via point, not to the turn. I find it distracting when I don't easily see what the next turn is and how far until I get there.

I also found for my 590, that placing a shaping point at the intersection of two streets does (sometimes) cause the distance to the next turn to be changed to the wrong distance while riding on the road.

I also found an issue with random straight lines appearing on the devices for my 450 and 550. This also got fixed by rebuilding those routes in MapSource and shifting the via points to AFTER the turns. This also required a recalc of the routes after they were imported to the devices. But once the recalculation is done the routes are correct.
Michael S.
Trinity, North Carolina
Zumo 590LM, 450, 550 BMW R1100RT, R100, R60/6
w2ge
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Re: Via-point recommendations?

Post by w2ge »

Michael, SUSS...

Damn, this changes what I’ve been doing and always thinking (And teaching others) was a sacrosanct rule RE proper, clean route creation; that is ‘Shaping points at pure intersections‘.

Youve Blown my mind, I’m gonna need time to process this. :D :D :lol:

So, Michael do you go into properties afterwards and change your shaping points to NOT be ANNOUNCED? I want my voice instructions to be Clean and only announce turns and when coming up to a waypoint, poi, or ... via-point.

(And on a different topic, are you a member of The NC Tarheels Travelers? One of my good friends just moved to Apex and joined. My daughter btw is a nurse at Duke in the Surgical/trauma ICU so we visit the area often, we're looking at Charlotte area to move soon)

My best. Phil
Phil - Current VP New Sweden BMW Riders, Past President
Voorhees, NJ
Zumo 396 -> SENA 20s EVO
BMW R1200RT
APRILIA Caponord Rally
MSTOCK27370
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Re: Via-point recommendations?

Post by MSTOCK27370 »

w2ge wrote: 04 Sep 2020 12:24 Damn, this changes what I’ve been doing and always thinking (And teaching others) was a sacrosanct rule RE proper, clean route creation; that is ‘Shaping points at pure intersections‘.

Youve Blown my mind, I’m gonna need time to process this. :D :D :lol:

So, Michael do you go into properties afterwards and change your shaping points to NOT be ANNOUNCED? I want my voice instructions to be Clean and only announce turns and when coming up to a waypoint, poi, or ... via-point.

(And on a different topic, are you a member of The NC Tarheels Travelers? One of my good friends just moved to Apex and joined. My daughter btw is a nurse at Duke in the Surgical/trauma ICU so we visit the area often, we're looking at Charlotte area to move soon)
My best. Phil
Phil - Yeah, I have had to completely switch my method of route planning. With my StreetPilot 2610, I used to put a point just before and then just after the turns. With the Zumo 450 & 550, I used to put the points exactly at the intersections. By doing that, they acted like shaping points and did't get announced. But, you couldn't ever recalculate the route, because all the shaping points would get erased and the route would just go from one via point to the other based only on settings in the Zumo. In my case that would change the route to the shortest path from the start to the end.

Now, I still use MapSource for the 450 and 550. But, I changed all the routes so the points are after the turn. But the 450/550 treats them as Via Points and they do get flagged and displayed (briefly) on the screen.

For my 590, I open the route in BaseCamp and make just about all of the shaping points Not Announced. All of the points are set after the turn. There's been a lot of discussion about issues with going off route and getting the device to direct you back to the route. This involves a balance between making a lot of points Via Points, or fewer of them and then having to figure out how and where to rejoin the route. It's a personal choice.

Yes, I am a member of the Tarheel Travelers. Great group.
Michael S.
Trinity, North Carolina
Zumo 590LM, 450, 550 BMW R1100RT, R100, R60/6
jfheath
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Re: Via-point recommendations?

Post by jfheath »

I'm coming to this discussion 2 months down the line.

@sussamb's definition is spot on what Garmin describe for the Waypoints, Via Points and Shaping Points. It wasn't always the case - the meanings seem to have evolved as the Zumos have evolved, and that has led to a lot of confusion about their use.

Route Points (any type), I tend to put a good way up the road after a junction - to prevent the Zumo finding a better route by visiting the point and then turning back.

I create a series of Waypoints and then build the route using those as the initial building blocks. Using a Waypoint is the only way you can get the Zumo to retain the name that you give it in Basecamp.

I use the insert tool to add additional points to finally Shape the route.

I move the Waypoints that I created to mark my stop-off places so that they are on the road that I want to take after the stop. These will be made into Via Points later, and I mark the actual stop location with a shaping point. That makes the actual stop optional - the satnav will try to take me to the Shaping Point, but if I ignore it I will eventually meet up with th emagenta route near to the moved Waypoint - and the satnav will not then insist that I go back. It also means that If I accidentally stop the route when fiddling around with the satnav in the cafe, I can restart it and select the Via point that is just up the road as the 'next destination' when I restart the route.

I batch change every point except first and last to be shaping points, and then pick 4 or 5 points to be Via points. These will be the ones after a potential coffee stops.

Finally, for a long route, if I don't know the area, I will add a day number and a mileage to the front of the name. It helps to identify precisely where the point is, without being able to recognise the name.

nb - I don't do this every time. Sometimes I just put in the destination, turn the volume down and ignore the instructions. It will get me to where I want to be, but I'll choose my own roads !

I've just completed a playlist of short videos to explain all of this in pictures. So far it has been a pretty foolproof method. I'll post the link on here somewhere. Here it is:

Link: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=P ... YF4zu8IA77

(Also posted in a new thread - 'Trouble-free routing')
Last edited by jfheath on 17 Nov 2020 14:29, edited 2 times in total.
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w2ge
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Re: Via-point recommendations?

Post by w2ge »

Jfheath,

Great post, I really like the idea of adding mileage in front of a waypoint, via point. It will help jumping into a route if somehow you’ve turned it off, I’ve had other riders get way off track on long rides (that I sent them the route for) I.e. due to a detour and they had problems getting back onto the route and get it started back up following their progress..

Look forward to getting the link to the videos you created. I’m interested especially in how you make your stopping points after your stop and shaping point at the actual location, I’m a bit unsure exactly what your choosing, doing in BaseCamp.

Thanks to All
Phil - Current VP New Sweden BMW Riders, Past President
Voorhees, NJ
Zumo 396 -> SENA 20s EVO
BMW R1200RT
APRILIA Caponord Rally

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