Zumo 590 - What the Manuals Do not Tell.

For everything Garmin Zumo 590/595 related
jfheath
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Re: Zumo 590 - What the Manuals Do not Tell.

Post by jfheath »

Right, I have somehow managed to get myself a 595.

I cannot reproduce your results. I have used the same Skipton to Fort WIlliam route that I showed on the couple of maps above. I did the same test on the 590 before I redid the conversion to a 595. Both gave the same results.

First, I tried it with the Via Point and Shaping points in place. It was taking an age to import the map which is not correct - it should import it in a few seconds, and this was taking a couple of minutes. It turned out that I had prepared the route a while ago, and since then I had installed the latest UK maps 2020.30. I hadn't recalculated the route in Basecamp. Also, I noted that I had some OSM maps on my system, and these were turned on. I have noted before that these maps cause problems with the Garmin maps if both are ticked at the same time. They can both be loaded, but not active. So I unticked the OSM maps.

Then I tried the route like yours, with all route points set as shaping points. There was no change in the route when loaded or after pressing GO.

Then I tried stripping the shaping points in both versions (ie with a few Via Points intact, and without. This can be useful for seeing if a route recalculates. Without the shaping points in place, it will be very obvious if there is a recalculation. But neither versions of my route recalculated on loading or when Go was pressed or when Start was pressed. For routes with Via Points included, I tried selecting a point further into the route as the starts. That DID calculate a route - but only up to the selected point after which the route was the same as before. Even with the shaping points stripped out.

Pressing SKip (its in the Change Route link) for any route point, and the route is recalculated and the sahpe is lost. It still goes through the Via Points though (if there are any).

(A word about stripping out the shaping points. - In Basecamp you can shape a route with the shaping points, and then remove them - leaving the shape of the route intact. When this gets transferred and imported to the Zumo, the Zumo retains the same shape. But as soon as it recalculates for whatever reason, it only has the Via Points as guides, so the original shaped route is lost. It is very obvious when looking at the map whether a recalculation ahs taken place, using this trick.


rbentnail wrote:
29 May 2020 21:40
Only the middle box "Always match route to the map on my device when transferring." is ticked.
I always have all of those checkboxes unticked on Device Transfer Options in Basecamp. But I tried with always match maps ticked, and it made no difference. I have noticed on a previous occasion that it did make a difference. It forced a recalc on import of the route. I don't have any notes and I don't remember the details.
rbentnail wrote:
29 May 2020 21:40
The device is completely useless to me in the Motorcycling activity. Both the device and Base Camp are set to the Driving activity. Both Base Camp and the device are set to Faster Time.
Its the settings in the Basecamp route that are used - (or just the vehicle and the routing properties.) Usually changing the vehicle type will force a recalculation, but it switches the unit to car as soon as you load the route. Beware of using custom profiles though. The Zumo doesn't know what a custom profile is, so when the Zumo receives it, it makes a decision about which profile to use, And it uses Bike. Which WILL force a recalculation of the route !!

I see no difference in the ZUmo being told that it is a car or a bike. If you set up the routing preferences and navigation preferences to be exactly the same, as far as I can see, they behave the same. Its just a way of storing 2 sets of settings. When the Zumo loads a route for the bike, it switches to bike mode, and apart from faster/shorter, it uses the settings (avoidances, tolls, etc) that are stored in the bikes profile.

The unit also switches mode according to the cradle it is in. But load a bike route into the Zumo when it is in the car cradle, and the cradle then becomes set as a bike cradle. There were so many ways of messing things up, I set up car and bike to be identical. Then I don't care.
rbentnail wrote:
29 May 2020 21:40
You can see in this thread viewtopic.php?f=12&t=93 when I asked roughly the same questions. I've been trying for 2 yrs to get this damn thing to simply follow a premade route. The gist of that thread (with no real results, obviously) is that I am doing something wrong.[/color]
I'll take a good look through that. Thanks.
rbentnail wrote:
29 May 2020 21:40
Base Camp 4.7.1 with Navigator North America NT 2021.1
On the device is Software Version 4.60 and Map: Full Coverage of North America 2021.10
Aha. Now - is that a typo or is it really version 2021.1 on Basecamp and version 2021.10 in the Zumo ??

Now you and I know that they are both the same decimal number. But it seems that the Zumo doesn't. Years back there was a similar situation with the numbering of the Zumo map and the Basecamp map. One had a nought on the end, the other didn't. The Zumo saw this as meaning that the maps were not identical, so every single route on import would get recalculated by the Zumo. The difference is that this can take a few minutes per route, as opposed to a few seconds. It remained like this until they brought out the next update.

So back to a comment I made further up - how long does it take to import a route ? It should be just a couple of seconds during which time the display will indicate calculating. If it takes longer than that for a route transferred from Basecamp, then that is where we need to look further.

If you're happy to stick with this to get it sorted and answer a load of questions, I'm happy to keep working at it. We might have to switch to email at some point.

It's late now, I'll read through your previous topic on the same subject tomorrow.

John

jfheath
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Re: Zumo 590 - What the Manuals Do not Tell.

Post by jfheath »

Ok - I have an answer for you.

I read through the posts on the link you posted two years ago, and I downloaded the route you mentioned (Linville to Yellow Mountain).
It has 5 Via points, one Shaping Point and a start and end point. No Waypoints. The single shaping point is as Thistledown Lane.

It is not necessarily the complete answer that I have found, and I do need to check some things out with you as I am using OSM maps (open source) for North Carolina, not Garmin maps. I had to download these as I only have the UK maps on my unit. But your route transferred precisely from your GPX file to my 595, and indeed it is showing a few anomalies - which revealed some new information for me, and it may well explain why your Zumo seems to be behaving in a peculiar manner. I haven't come across this particular 'feature' before, but if it is what I think it is, you would certainly believe that it is recalculating your routes all of the time.

So rather than get into an on-line discussion about something that I am not entirely clear about, if you PM me an email address, I'll send you screen shots and explanations of what I think is happening. And if you can agree, contradict or raise some other stuff, maybe we will arrive at the answer to your woes.

Whatever - these anomalies have come from your Basecamp route, and have nothing to do with the Zumo. Or you. This issue is to do with the mapping or the settings or a combination of both. Now I think I know what to look for, it will be much easier to sort it out.

I started to post the explanation on here, but after I had posted my 5th image, it refused it, and I need to explain this with images. I must have run out of permitted space. So I am in the process of putting together a pdf document that I can email to you.

Pm me an email address, and we can see where this goes, and if you have a route that does something similar, post or send me that and I'll see if it is the same problem.

John

rbentnail
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Re: Zumo 590 - What the Manuals Do not Tell.

Post by rbentnail »

jfheath wrote:
29 May 2020 23:04
Right, I have somehow managed to get myself a 595.
rbentnail wrote:
29 May 2020 21:40
Base Camp 4.7.1 with Navigator North America NT 2021.1
On the device is Software Version 4.60 and Map: Full Coverage of North America 2021.10
Aha. Now - is that a typo or is it really version 2021.1 on Basecamp and version 2021.10 in the Zumo ??

Now you and I know that they are both the same decimal number. But it seems that the Zumo doesn't. Years back there was a similar situation with the numbering of the Zumo map and the Basecamp map. One had a nought on the end, the other didn't. The Zumo saw this as meaning that the maps were not identical, so every single route on import would get recalculated by the Zumo. The difference is that this can take a few minutes per route, as opposed to a few seconds. It remained like this until they brought out the next update.
No, that is not a typo. That is exactly what is shown. xx.1 in Base amp and xx.10 on the zumo via Base Camp. I could not figure out how to look at the device directly and see the software and map versions.


So back to a comment I made further up - how long does it take to import a route ? It should be just a couple of seconds during which time the display will indicate calculating. If it takes longer than that for a route transferred from Basecamp, then that is where we need to look further.
I'm confused about what you are asking me. To IMPORT a route contained on an SD card in the device takes 2 or 3 seconds. Sometime as much as 5 or 6 for really long routes but it has always done this quickly.

I do not use the TRANSFER command in Base Camp. I drag and drop the route to MEMORY CARD/USER MEMORY, i.e., what I believe is the SD card, yes? I have never had any difficulty with importing this way.


If you're happy to stick with this to get it sorted and answer a load of questions, I'm happy to keep working at it. We might have to switch to email at some point.

It's late now, I'll read through your previous topic on the same subject tomorrow.

John
Russ B. Zumo 595,
2007 Yamaha FJR1300A, 128k and counting

Iris
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Re: Zumo 590 - What the Manuals Do not Tell.

Post by Iris »

BaseCamp Map 2021.1 vs
GPS Map 2021.10

Is it really an issue because I just checked mine. The odd thing is
When I look at the gps unit by going to settings/map & vehicle/myMaps,
It says 2021.10.
However, when I plug the unit into the computer and look in BaseCamp in the map Pulldown-Menu, I see two 2021.1 running at the same time. One is the computer, the other is the gps unit.

Image


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

jfheath
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Re: Zumo 590 - What the Manuals Do not Tell.

Post by jfheath »

There was one 3 month period when the map in the Zumo reported one number and the same map in Basecamp reported another number. One had the zero, the other didn't. So it was something like 2016.3 and 2016.30 (although I cannot remember the exact year and number).

For the 3 months before the new map came out, every single route that was transferred from Basecamp caused the Zumo to recalculate the route. And for long routes, this would take a good couple of minutes, as opposed to the few seconds that it normally takes.

But @rbentnail reports that his routes are taking just a few seconds, so it appears that this is no longer an issue. I can imagine a conversation with a programmer discussing the difference between comparing text and comparing numbers.

In this case, I spotted the different numbers, remembered the problem from a few years ago, and wondered if that had any bearing on rbentnail's issues. It doesn't.

Since then I've been looking at rbentnail's issue and routes and have found two very definite possibilities for his 595 misery. Just awaiting a reply before going any further.

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Re: Zumo 590 - What the Manuals Do not Tell.

Post by sussamb »

Following this with interest, can hardly wait to hear what the issue is :)

jfheath
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Re: Zumo 590 - What the Manuals Do not Tell.

Post by jfheath »

sussamb wrote:
01 Jun 2020 10:09
Following this with interest, can hardly wait to hear what the issue is :)
I thought you might be. I'm pretty sure that one of the things I have noticed will be what the problem is - but there are a few things going on, which may be something completely different. Actually, I suspect that when I tell you what I think it is, it won't be anything new to you - but if it isn't then, I don't want to get side tracked into a separate issue. I'll get the problem sorted first and then see what is left. But one of the remnants I will certainly need your help with because I haven't seen this before.

[Edit] I am not being secretive. To explain, I need to be able to place pictures. I tried and after the fourth picture the system refused to accept any more. I don't use dropbox or stuff like that, so I can't simply put links into the document. So I've got a pdf nearly completed and will get that out as soon as I get a way of sharing it. I was going to email, but people would need to be happy to share their email address with me.

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Re: Zumo 590 - What the Manuals Do not Tell.

Post by jfheath »

@rbentnail

Would you mind providing me with a screen shot of your Basecamp route please - the gdb file that you linked to here download/file.php?id=143. Its the route from Linville to Yellow Mountain.
I am particularly interested in how this appears on your screen in Basecamp- the section from Linville to Oak Grove Baptist Church - so if you could zoom in to show as much detail as possible on the one screen, that would be brilliant.

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Re: Zumo 590 - What the Manuals Do not Tell.

Post by jfheath »

Ok. Here's what I have.

The issue was to do with odd navigation behaviour on a route that was published a couple of years ago, and to which @rbentnail linked earlier in this post. That page is here if you want to follow it through. viewtopic.php?f=12&t=93

I downloaded the route - being in the UK, I don't have access to the Garmin USA maps, so I downloaded and installed OSM maps for North Carolina for Basecamp and the Zumo 595.

Here is an extract of the short route. A start, end, 6 Via Points, One Shaping Point. Click the thumbnail to get the larger image
Rbentnails problem route - truncated.jpg

And here is the route list - I have omitted the start and end points from both of these images.

BC route list.jpg

Now, on my OSM maps, the shaping point at Thistledown Lane is in a location where there is no road. I haven't been able to confirm, but the route I downloaded clearly went through this point and follows what now appears to be a track from the Google Satellite images. From the street view photos, there has been no road junction on the NC181 for any of their photos - which date back to 2009.

rbentnail detail.jpg
The stretch of road that doesn't exist according to my OSM maps is shown on this detail - I have coloured it in a light blue.


If all of that is actually the case and that USA maps show this as a navigable road, no wonder Russ is having problems.

This is what I reckon will happen.

First section to Newland Highway. Navigates OK.
Second section to Thistledown Lane - Ok until the turn left from the NC181. There is no junction to take. At this point you have to ignore the instructions. The satnav will calculate a new route from where you are to get you to the Shaping Point at Thistledown Lane. Wherever it takes you, you cannot get there. There is no road. There appears to be a track, which you don't take. Each time you ignore, it calculates another way to get you there. At some point (probably after the 2nd attempt), the 595 will display a message asking if you want to Skip the Shaping Point at Thistledown Lane. If you say No, you are stuck in an endless loop of recalculated routes, all trying to get you to a place it cannot reach. If you say Yes, the 595 looks at its list, and deletes Thistledown Lane from it. It takes you to the next location. You have ticked off Newland Highway, so the next point after that is Old Montezuma Road. So it tries to get you there instead. That should be the end of it. But it is using a map that has a road which is no longer there, and that road is the most direct way. Until you find a way to get to Montezuma Road without going down Thistledown Lane, it is going to keep recalculating and sending you all over the place. Chances are there are other roads on its map that don't actually exist.

So I reckon that the issue is with the map, not with you. Not with the satnav.

Just for completeness. If you manged to join the route on the Old Montezuma Road (which does exist), AFTER the Thistledown Lane Shaping Point, the Zumo will navigate you from there to the Via Point on Old Montezuma Road - without trying to take you back to the Shaping Point on Thistledown Lane.

Why ? Why, when it insisted for so long to take you to the Shaping Point, is it happy to forget about it now ?
Well that is because you have joined the correct route after the shaping point, you are heading to the next route point AND Thistledown Lane is a Shaping Point, not a Via Point. It will happily skip a shaping point once you rejoin the route after it. It won't do that for a Via Point. It will nag forever.

But that is what the skip function is for.

And as soon as you miss a Via Point, if you don't press skip, it will continue to try to get you back to that single Via Point. Even if you reach the end of the route - whatever it plots, if you haven't visited that Via Point or pressed Skip, that is where it is trying to take you.

The 595 introduced the automatic Skip which appears after you have ignored instructions twice. If you ignore the prompt, it goes away and waits for you to ignore another two instructions and shows the prompt again.



Skip is obtained from the spanner button, bottom right of the screen. It is in the Change Route button.

If Change route doesn't appear on the screen from spanner button, you may need to add the icon -- Settings->Map & Vehicle ->Map Tools. Tick or remove the items you want to be available from the spanner. A maximum of 12 are allowed on screen. The Zumo 595 comes with 11 icons, but if you add smartphone links, traffic and weather apps, it can soon fill up.


I discovered something really weird and unexpected when I loaded this route onto my maps that don't have the road marked. At first I thought this was the problem. It may still be the case, but I think it is more likely that your maps show these extinct roads. I want to confirm that - which is why I asked for a screen shot in my previous post.
I'll put this in another thread though - its to do with planned routes going off road. I've put it here: viewtopic.php?f=12&t=759

Sorry its so long. I hope that it helps.

It is unfortunate that you managed to plot a test route on roads that don't actually exist on the ground, and that you did that soon after buying a 595. They are a steep enough learning curve without having that curved ball thrown into the mix.
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Last edited by jfheath on 02 Jun 2020 10:49, edited 1 time in total.

sussamb
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Re: Zumo 590 - What the Manuals Do not Tell.

Post by sussamb »

Thistledown Lane is indeed shown on the CN NA map, and is navigable on it, but as you say it doesn't actually exist :D

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