Latest XT2/Tread software version

[proofresistant]

Here are a few screen shots - taken last night.

@jfheath, Thanks
I'll try building that myself sometime

But I'll set my destination to Brampton instead of Carlisle to see how the M6 is handled then

[Regain]

@proofresistant well if my shaping points aren’t susceptible to being moved, I’m happy with that. I’ve not previously forensically studied their exact placement so long as my route follows my track. My via points have always been placed and named correctly.
Regarding Tread routes, I shouldn’t think they are really classed as imported given that Tread and XT2 are supposedly one and the same. The question I do have is if you import a route into Tread (rather than via USB to the XT2) does that route show as imported in the XT2?

@jfheath it was following your guidelines and from MRA instructions that I now place shaping points at approximately 5km intervals in order to nail the route to track. It seems most important whenever a faster road is nearby. I then import to Tread and check the route builds and follows my track before putting it onto my SD card (or if on tour, trying to start the route via Tread).

[proofresistant]

@proofresistant well if my shaping points aren’t susceptible to being moved, I’m happy with that. I’ve not previously forensically studied their exact placement so long as my route follows my track. My via points have always been placed and named correctly.
Regarding Tread routes, I shouldn’t think they are really classed as imported given that Tread and XT2 are supposedly one and the same.

I don't set the waypoints with forensic precision either.
And that's exactly what I don't want to do, who would want that?. But I do set the waypoints deliberately so that the route is followed exactly as planned.
I set them so that the Zumo XT2 (Tread 2) route guidance goes exactly where I want it to, no more and no less.
And that’s exactly how I had problemns like observed the issues discussed here.

But then, when I try to reproduce them in a way that’s clearly reproducible, and only then, I tend to put more effort into finding critical shaping points.

The question I do have is if you import a route into Tread (rather than via USB to the XT2) does that route show as imported in the XT2?

When I import the GPX file with the zumo XT2 (Tread 2) device, it is marked as imported (and I expect there to be a RUT issue).
And when, like i recently noticed, I import Routes from GPX using the Tread app, this doesn't happen, Route (Trip File) is not marked as imported (so hopefully there won't be a RUT issue).

[proofresistant]

@jfheath it was following your guidelines and from MRA instructions that I now place shaping points at approximately 5km intervals in order to nail the route to track. It seems most important whenever a faster road is nearby. I then import to Tread and check the route builds and follows my track before putting it onto my SD card (or if on tour, trying to start the route via Tread).

Honestly, a shaping point every 5 km, especially on a 500 km route?
That would quickly add up to over 100 shaping points for a single route.
Sorry, but based on all my experience, that’s not a good approach.
May at around 30 shaping points, the device can already start behaving very strangely during calculations

My philosophy:
As few shaping points as possible, and only as many as necessary to follow the route track correctly as planned.

[Regain]

@proofresistant sorry, I should have qualified my post re 5km spacing. Please add “where necessary to ensure correct routing”.
The days when my group rode 500km in a day are behind us now. If we did, it would be a chunk of motorway involved so no points required. The roads we pick are the twisties and scenic ones so less miles. Our longest route planned this year is 191miles and that has 42 shaping points between vias. It calculates in Tread and on the XT2 with no ‘amendments’ even after syncing.

[proofresistant]

@Regain OK,
what you’re writing is probably a reason why you personally and perhaps many others, haven’t noticed any problems or negative effects with shapings here yet.

But I should leave it as I wrote it.
To my knowledge, may MRA sets the shaping points every generally (x) kilometers and then, unfortunately, also discards my own set shaping points in the exported route
And if the conclusion were to set waypoints every 5 km fix, so that the route works as planned, then in my opinion that is still not the best recommendation.
Then, if I do it that way, I can just take a track and turn it into a route that usually works without any problems also

If your longest route planned this year is 191miles and that has 42 shaping points between vias, it should be fine for you.
So that’s enough for you and many such “short routes”
Personally, I find 42 shaping points—especially between waypoints, to be much too many

500 km on small roads, plus some Motorway KM, that is more my preferred way of having fun

But let's get back to the topic at hand.
What we're discussing right now isn't relevant to the topic of the "Latest XT2/Tread software version"
Why don't you start (you should) a separate thread where we can discuss the pros and cons of MRA?

[jfheath]

...
RUT will happen on any imported route, but you have to know what triggers that behaviour. For certain, if you skip a route point, the entire route
...

@jfheath, I'm not entirely sure about the “any” part from "RUT will happen on any imported route" right now more.
I’ve noticed, I don’t know if it’s always been this way, that the “Imported” flag is set to [False] for routes imported from the Tread app.
PNG-Bild (neu) (4).png

And with the “imported” flag set to false, there shouldn’t be a RUT problem, right?

Yes, that is correct. I’ve tested that on all of my test routes with routes built with saved Waypoints:

Created on the XT2 and XT - cannot be made to display RUT behaviour.
Created as a gpx file using identical saved waypoints - can ‘always’ be made to display RUT behaviour.
Created a a gpx file using identical saved waypoints, but then modified to alter the mIMPORTED byte to 0 (false) cannot be forced to display RUT behaviour. Ditto if an imported route is copied using the save current route feature on the XT1.

In order to force RUT behaviour I use a route where at some point there are two alternatives. Eg. Roads that form a triangle. I can take two sides or one side to reach the same point. Or roads that form a rectangle. I can go down then left, or left and then down to reach the same point.

I place a via point within say a mile from the start. After passing the start, I then skip the next via point a mile up the road. The route recalculates, and it takes on a different set of routing rules. Rather than point to point navigation, it behaves more like a track that has been converted to a trip.

When I deviate from the plotted route a normal ‘saved’ route will (eventually) recalculate a new way to get to the next route point - via or shaping. ‘ ‘Eventually’ means that when the way ahead is determined to be the best way forward. To establish that, I need to find the tipping point - the place on the road that I am traveling where a shad route will stop asking me to go back and start navigating ahead.

When I deviate from an imported route that has been recalculated, getting to the next route point is not what it is trying to do. It ignores route points and instead tries to get you to rejoin the original route. To do this, it deletes the route behind you - that already traveled, and it plants a new green flag at your current position. The original route is behind so it plots a route to perform a u-turn, or it finds a road up ahead that it can use to turn you back. If you ignore the instruction, it does the same thing again. New start point, route already traveled deleted, closest point is where it last calculated the route. There is no way out of this unless you get closer to the a different part of the original route.

And I can verify that what I observed RUT behaviour because:
The automatic track log is broken at every point where the route is recalculated
I perform the test again with U turns disabled. That reveals a route which includes all of the turn back loops
Any missed route points are deleted from the screen
Tapping skip before the end of the route should reveal that there are no points to skip, but in fact all of the points remain in the list.

Pressing skip does not guarantee RUT behaviour. You have to deviate from the route and ignore instructions to go back - as you would if the intended road had been closed.

The quickest way out of it is to stop, reload the route and set it off again using closest entry point.

[Regain]

@proofresistant ok, I was going to have a stab at answering some of your points, non MRA related, but other than to tell you what version my Tread is (still 3.00.09 on my iOS), I'm not sure what else is relevant to this thread.

[proofresistant]

... I'm not sure what else is relevant to this thread.

In my opinion, the following points are primarily relevant to the topic “Latest XT2/Tread software version”:

• What new versions are available?

• What changes have been observed in the new version?

• What's new?

• What has been fixed?

• What new bugs (or “features,” in Garmin speak) have been added (such as the note about a maximum of 10 shapings per section)?

• And for those waiting for fixes, what hasn’t been fixed?

But that’s just my opinion.
When in doubt, it’s better to say a little more than to leave out something interesting, we can always continue the discussion in separate threads if helps.

[jfheath]

@jfheath it was following your guidelines and from MRA instructions that I now place shaping points at approximately 5km intervals in order to nail the route to track. It seems most important whenever a faster road is nearby. I then import to Tread and check the route builds and follows my track before putting it onto my SD card (or if on tour, trying to start the route via Tread).

Just to be clear on this point - I don’t think that I have ever recommended using shaping points that frequently as a matter of course. I have noticed that people on MRA forums have a tendency to ‘lace up a route’ with a lot of shaping points - preventing the Zumo from ever recalculating a new route to somewhere up ahead. It keeps you on the road that you planned, but it becomes a big issue if you are forced to go off your planned route. I prefer to let the Zumo calculate to the next route point 20 miles ahead, and have the track displayed so that I have my original for reference. Once you have the experience and have a fair idea what the Zumo will do when you go off route, it is easier to ignore it. Sometimes, if the road you want to ride is close to a faster road, and your routing preference is to use faster roads, then the Zumo is going to jump on the faster road at every opportunity.

But if you use a lot of shaping points, the Zumo is going to steer you to each one, and if you have to go off route it will want to take you back to them. So if you go off route you then have to ask the question - is it taking me to the next shaping point ahead, or one of the ones I have just missed, behind?


My test described above and in more detail on the ‘Making it work for you’ pages, shows 6 shaping points in close proximity. That is not normal for me. I wouldn’t have any in that section under normal circumstances. If the route jumped onto the motorway, I would ignore it and let it recalculate in the direction that I am heading. Typically my routes will have 3 vias between start and end and maybe 0-3 shaping points between the vias.


I am quite happy with how the XT2 behaves - and it is almost as good as the 590 - except for the changed route point names, and the RUT behaviour. Both of these are fixed by using TripManager to send the trip to the XT2.

You can also fix both issues by using Waypoints to keep the names, and setting them as via or shaping as required, and by making a copy of the route using the XT2 menu, and navigate using the copy. (The copy is a ‘saved’ route and will never get stuck in a RUT. The original is imported). You can do something similar with the XT1.

But with the XT2 with Tread allowed to synch it has proved challenging to work out what it is doing, because it never does exactly the same thing twice in a row. Even on the Tread app itself, change a via to a shaping point it will often shift the new shaping point to a new road. If it doesn’t and you change the next via to a shaping, it will often move both to a nearby faster road. Use the undo button to take it back to how it was before and then repeat, it does something different. Undo and repeat again and the shaping points and the route stay exactly where they were plotted.

Without Tread synching, routes behave pretty well.

——

I have a little exercise for you. Plot a route in your local area - a small one of just 2-3 miles, with say 4-5 shaping points. Save it, load it and start riding / driving. Go through the start point, and then silence the satnav and drive somewhere else. Then stop at the side of the road and without looking at the screen, decide where you think the satnav should be routing you. Then look at the satnav try to work out where IT is taking you. Which route point is it heading for ?
You can vary this by repeating the exercise but maybe flirt with the route by joining it at somewhere in the middle and then deviate again for a while.