Tread Changes Exisiting Routes - Shaping Point Issues

[smfollen]

Thanks @proofresistant That is interesting info but it is a different case, since it is starting on the Tread App.

The issue I originally reported, and recently retested, starts with a route containing multiple via and shaping points, imported onto the XT2 via gpx file. That route is not on the Tread App, nor on the Explore Web page.

The route in the gpx file imports without issue and is unchanged on the XT2 as long as no sync occurs. This remains true over long periods of time.

If I later allow a Tread / Explore sync to occur between my XT and my [one] phone, then the route on the XT2 is changed. The via points are not changed, but the shaping points are moved significantly. It appears that something in the sync process is either moving the shaping points or is deleting the original ones and creating new ones.

Here are the 11 shaping points between one pair of via points in the original route

OrigPoints.png (117.94 KiB) Viewed 571 times

and a very different 11 shaping points between the same pair of via points in the route after the Tread / Explore sync. Note that the first four shaping points are the same point repeated.

AfterSyncPoints.png (111.96 KiB) Viewed 571 times

On the map, the original segment

MapSegmentOrig.png (1.33 MiB) Viewed 571 times

and the changed segment after sync

MapSegmentAfterSync.png (1.28 MiB) Viewed 571 times

Note that I used Basecamp to illustrate and capture screen shots here but the routes are the exact routes from the XT2 before and after sync.

[Regain]

@smfollen well, that is an explosion of shaping points. You’re obviously using Basecamp, those lat/longs would need some checking to see if the amended points were actually correct even though they shouldn’t have been moved. Heading North all the time too?

It looks like Tread thought it should optimise your route. If I had enough time, I’d copy your points onto MRA and see if the same thing happened to me. Sometimes I do get a difference of track and route when checking on Tread so add more shaping points to make sure it doesn’t happen but never anything like you’ve experienced.

All my home planned routes go onto the SD card via USB and are allowed to sync. I only ever import and open one route at a time which keeps both the Zumo and my head clean and tidy. And display the track of course when riding it.

I suppose if you sent that to Garmin, they would just say Basecamp is no longer supported or something like that.

[proofresistant]

Thanks @proofresistant That is interesting info but it is a different case, since it is starting on the Tread App.
...

@smfollen
I completely agree with you; the resulting problems are completely different

My example was only meant to show that I personally suspect that the problem is not the synchronization with the Explore DB itself

As mentioned, I think it's the interaction between zumo xt2 (or Tread 2) and the Tread app

The issue you originally criticized is also one of my main problems with the Tread app.

• Routes with shaping points that work perfectly in my zumo XT2 and can be recalculated at any time in the zumo XT2 are “destroyed” as soon as the navigation device is synchronized with the Tread app.

• GPX files with routes and shaping points, which I can import perfectly into the zumo XT2 via SD card and which can also be recalculated at any time in the zumo XT2, are “destroyed” when I import them with the Tread app, even if the zumo XT2 is not switched on during this process.

• And last but not least, the seemingly endless synchronization loops lead to crashes, but that's a different issue, although it may be caused by the same thing.
  

Then I can try to see what happens when I test your test route with my Tread 2.
I would like to see what arrives in the Explore cloud when the Tread app itself does not synchronize with the device.
My approach would be as follows:

• 1st obtain the maps of America

• Turn off Bluetooth

• Import your GPX file into my Tread 2

• Synchronize Tread 2 with the Explore cloud

• Synchronize the Explore cloud with the Tread app

• See what happens

However, I need time for this, which I still have to find somehow.

[smfollen]

@Regain I used Basecamp here to illustrate because it is easier to show and screenshot the differences. The after sync route was exported from the XT2.

I suppose if you sent that to Garmin, they would just say Basecamp is no longer supported or something like that.

The original route was from Basecamp. I did send this to Garmin support, and they did try to blame Basecamp. To prove Basecamp was not the issue, I recreated the original route with Tread, exported in as a gpx and imported that to the XT2. The same issue occurred. Garmin support opened a case in September of 2024 - it remains open. I have exchanged something in the range of 50 emails with them so far. The dialog continues...

It looks like Tread thought it should optimise your route.

Some route planners do have options to optimize routes, but (1) it is an option, not something done without the users knowledge and (2) optimization typically involves re-ordering points to minimize total distance (e.g. for a delivery driver) not moving points to different locations (e.g. delivering to the wrong locations).

Sometimes I do get a difference of track and route when checking on Tread so add more shaping points ...

Routing calculation results can be expected vary among various devices and route planners due to differences in maps, routing algorithms and user settings for route preferences and avoidances, but those differences are limited to taking different paths between user specified route points. And yes, adding more shaping points solves that. No software or device should ever change user input, however - in this case, XT2 / Tread / Explore should never move any user specified route points (unless the user does so explicitly).

@proofresistant and @Regain
My original route is attached to this post viewtopic.php?p=22791#p22791 so you can experiment if you would like to. My recent retest was with map City Navigator North America NT 2027.1, Tread App version 3.00.06 and XT firmware 6.40. The issue originally occurred with older versions of all 3.

By the way, this is just one example of the issue, not a unique case. I saw the issue with multiple routes before I stopped using the Tread App entirely. Other users have also experienced the issue with their routes. Garmin support has received additional reports from others.

[proofresistant]

@BasPost where did this message about 10 shaping points between via points originate? I have some routes planned for a tour in June and each one of them calculates both in Tread and the XT2 with many more than that. I’ve just tried one of them that has 37 shaping points between vias and it runs just fine.
...

@BasPost where did this message about 10 shaping points between via points originate? I have some routes planned for a tour in June and each one of them calculates both in Tread and the XT2 with many more than that. I’ve just tried one of them that has 37 shaping points between vias and it runs just fine. ...

Maybe it's not 10 shaping points in total in whole route, but 10 shaping points between every two waypoints?

@Francis that still doesn’t seem right, as stated I have 37 between two via points (start and finish of the 186 mile route).

Just for your information,
In newest Tread App i also saw this message today with the maximum of 10 "Route points" between destinations.
I don't know if it really is may a “new” restriction, as I often have more than 30 shaping points between the VIA points myself.
Let's see how it affects things in the future.

PNG-Bild (neu) (2).png (104.63 KiB) Viewed 523 times

[Regain]

Ok, I’ll keep checking. I’m on iOS and my updated version of Tread is still 3.00.03. I’ve read on here others are on 3.00.06, maybe that’s Android? Anyway, maybe I have this to come. That would mean using way more via points which would not be my preference.

However, what is a “route point” in Garmin Tread speak? I bet someone on here knows. I’ve tried a Google search which gave me an AI answer and led to some Garmin pages. Inconclusive. Maybe a maximum of 10 via points on a route?

[proofresistant]

3.00.06 Android

[jfheath]

My example was only meant to show that I personally suspect that the problem is not the synchronization with the Explore DB itself

As mentioned, I think it's the interaction between zumo xt2 (or Tread 2) and the Tread app

There is that invisible step in synching - everything gets sent to the Explore.garmin.com Explore database. That gets the updated data from the XT2, processes it and sends it back to the Xt2 via a different 'channel' in the app.

I think that it goes: XT2 route -> App on phone -> Explore database and software -> Phone data channel (via the Tread app) -> XT2 route.

[Regain]

Re the 10 shaping points between stops issue, I think I may have found something. It also happens (I get the pop up message) on my version if I try to edit an already imported and fully built route on Tread. However, I tried to disprove it by building a quick route on Tread and editing it. It accepted way more than 10 extra shaping points between my ‘stops’. So, I don’t know if it’s bogus.

This shouldn’t be a problem the way I do my routes anyway, which is almost always on MRA. All my routes seem to run ok in both Tread and on the XT2.

[proofresistant]

@proofresistant and @Regain
My original route is attached to this post viewtopic.php?p=22791#p22791 so you can experiment if you would like to.

Just i tested also. With map City Navigator North America NT 2027.1, Tread App version 3.00.06 and Tread 2 (edit: i tested Tread 2 not zumo XT2 firmware 6.40. )


I have never seen such serious differences before.

OK, you had already described it, but when you see the reality live, you quickly get a different picture.

Anyway, here are my results step by step.

• 1 BC source

• 2 Tread 2 Imported (edit: i tested Tread 2 not zumo XT2)

• 3 Explore Cloude arrived an track created

• 4 Tread App arrived (and soon changed?)

• 5 Explore Cloude Resynchronized

I may have swapped the order of steps 5 and 6, but that's not very relevant, i belive.

• 6 Tread 2 Resynchronized (edit: i tested Tread 2 not zumo XT2)

ChathamLoopOriginal 1 BC s2.png (959.75 KiB) Viewed 498 times

ChathamLoopOriginal 2 Tread 2 Imp s4.png (463.1 KiB) Viewed 481 times

ChathamLoopOriginal 3 Explore Cloude.png (2.36 MiB) Viewed 498 times

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ChathamLoopOriginal 4 Tread App s1.png (1.89 MiB) Viewed 498 times

ChathamLoopOriginal 5 Explore Cloude ReSync.png (2.47 MiB) Viewed 498 times

ChathamLoopOriginal 6 Tread 2 ReSync s2.png (450.85 KiB) Viewed 481 times

@smfollen
Where do you think the error is in your example, between Explore Cloud and Tread App?
As you already suspected?
Or is there something else unexpected?