How is Basecamp creating a non-simple route w/ 2 waypoints?

[LQQK_OUT]

When did you see that the return route had no Shaping Points ? When you imported it into MRA, or when you loaded it into the Zumo?

After lunch, when I loaded the route into the Zumo XT2. It was surprising to me since the outbound route worked without any issues.

I suspect that for the return route that your finger slipped (or their finger slipped) and gpx v1.2 was selected when it was exported from MRA. V1.2 has the ghost points and no shaping points - MRA deliberately leaves them out. Some other programs also do the same thing - including Basecamp if the option is selected.

MRA’s gpx v1.1 does not include the ghost points so it is unlikely that you used that to export the gpx file.

How do you know that it has the ghost points though ?

‘Ghost points’ is a term that I coined years back to describe the hundreds of invisible gpxx route points that ensure that the Zumo plots the route on the same roads as planned . Originally, the Zumo would not recalculate the route if it had ghost points that were created using identical maps.

I don't believe my fingers slipped. I've attached the four original files I was given on this motorcycle charity ride. You can take a look for yourself.
How would you have transferred these files to a Zumo XT2 if you couldn't transfer them via a USB cable from a laptop?

Mass Transfer Mode AND Media Transfer Protocol ? Please tell us how. I've missed that !

I believe that Mass Transfer Mode - ie operating like a disk drive - was ditched on the XT because with the growth of mobile phones, people have got used to just removing the usb cable after transferring data. You can do that with Media Transfer Protocol, but not with Mass Transfer mode - you have to formally 'eject' the attached usb device before unplugging the cable, otherwise there is a high probability that the last chunk of data will not have been sent to the Zumo.

I responded to this earlier. I based by post/response on information that was contained in the Zumo XT2 Owner's Manual. Obviously, the information in the owner's manual wasn't complete or thorough.

[jfheath]

Thanks for those. Ok - I was completely wrong in my suppositions - but without much info, it was a reasonable supposition. But still wrong !!

2025 RMC FFR Outbound Rte

Transportation Mode = Motorcycling
Calculation Mode - Curvy Roads
Has one waypoint which confusingly called Fall Foliage Run '25 Outbound Track - which is the second point in the route
It has one via point declared at the start of the route - the second point - the way point is also set as a Via and the end point is a via.
It has a lot of shaping points
and a whole lot more gpxx route point extension - ghost points

2025 RMC FFR Return Rte

Has two waypoints declared - again confusingly called 2025 RMC FFR Return Track1 and 2025 RMC FFR Return Track2
Transportation Mode = Motorcycling
Two Via Points declared - one at each end
Calculation Mode - Curvy Roads
No (Zero) shaping points are defined.
Route contains hundreds of the gpxx route point extensions - ghost points

2025 RMC FFR Outbound Trk

Consists of only track points

2025 RMC FFR Return Trk

Contains only track points


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I've attached the four original files I was given on this motorcycle charity ride. You can take a look for yourself.
How would you have transferred these files to a Zumo XT2 if you couldn't transfer them via a USB cable from a laptop?

Without having access to USB transfer there is no other way. Maybe - just maybe you can do a Zumo transfer from one device to an identical device - but that begs the question - how do you get it on the identical device. One method is to use and SD card, but when I have tried that with my 4 Zumos, very often the Zumo does not want to read the card that has been taken out of another device. That probably has more to do with the capacity of the card not being suitable for earlier devices. But it is what you would encounter with a group of people.

So if you are taking part in those activities, then the only way is to use the Drive App on the XT or the Tread App on the XT2. Earlier versions of Zumos do not have the facility to use wireless - I don't think.. The 590 and 595 had Smartphone Link - I never checked to see whether routes could be transmitted from your phone.

With the XT1 - it is possible to set up the Drive App so that it allows gpx files in emails for example, to be opened by the drive app which will then transfer it as it is to the XT1. That ends up as a GPX file in Internal Storage/GPX. This is possible whether synchronisation with the Explore database is enabled or not.

With the XT2 in order to do the same with the Tread App, then synchronisation has to be allowed. So now you have a serious dilemma.

I'll explain this in terms of the XT2 only.

You have to have Tread fully installed and synchronising with the XT2 to accept routes sent as gpx files to your phone. (Or by sharing routes on the tread app itself).
Ideally, that should be it. Send the route, it comes through exactly as planned. But that isn't what happens.
Routes created outside of Tread may get altered. By 'may' I mean nearly always from the tests that I have carried out. The changes are subtle but significant.

eg

• a shaping point may be moved from the side road that you want to take onto a nearby main road that you wanted to avoid. The distance may be as much as a mile, but the effect of that change to the route, is significant.
• Route point names are altered from the names that you gave.

The route may be recalculated when it is transferred or imported into the XT2. Because:

• Sometimes eg due to Curvy Roads not being recognised by the Zumo, you have the choice of recalculating or not.
• The map used to create the route in the first place is different from the one on the XT2 (although that may have been dealt with by loading it into Tread). If this recalculation is required, you have no choice but to accept it.
• Sometimes the route gets transferred to the XT2 OK, but subsequent re-synchronisations result in route points being relocated. Typically in my tests, when the re-synch is forced by tapping the option on the XT2 screen. But other times as well.
• The Tread App ignores all of the gpxx route point extensions - the ghost points - when it imports a gpx file . It uses the route points only so your since your return route didn't have any route points excep start and finish, it went home using the main roads when I imported it into the Tread App on my ipad.

If recalculation takes place, it affects the entire route. The roads to travel between each pair of route points is re-worked. If the shaping points are close enough together as in your outbound route - then this virtually forces the satnav to calculate the same route and all is good - unless Tread has moved the shaping points.

If the route contains only the start and end Via Points, then the XT will use whatever settings it has as default to calculate a complete new route from the only route points it has - the start and end Via points. If it doesn't recognise the routing preference in the route file (Curvy Roads) for example, it will typically default to Faster time.

The XT2 is a bit of a nightmare for tour operators. I know - I gave a presentation for a local tour operator. You get people with Zumos ranging from the early 550s all the way through the 59x, 39x and the XTs. The 550 people haven't got a clue what a shaping point is - they didn't exist until the 590.

The best advice that I can give is for tour operators themselves - simply to be aware of the issues. Giving the route beforehand with plenty of saved Waypoints (which the zumos will never alter) - gives the recipient the chance to modify the structure of the route for their needs.
And always supply a track of the original route. (Will Tread import and export a track - I don't think that I have ever tried. I know you could not create one the last time I tried.

For you - presented with that situation there are two alternatives.

1. Create a Route from the Track. ie Select the track, select the spanner, Convert to a Route. You can then load the route and go with that. There will be no intermediate route points. If you deviate from such a route, it tries to get you back on route - aiming for the closest point and navigating you towards it. But because the closest point may be behind you , that could end up in a RUT situation when it will do nothing but demand that you go back. This RUT behaviour actually originates from tracks converted to trips/routes. Its just that the XT1 and XT2 software decides that if you skip a route point, to recalculate the route as if it is a track converted to a route. That's' why you cannot make RUT behaviour happen unless the route has been recalculated.

Note that the option to convert a track to a route also exists in the Tread App.

2. Put the Outbound Route and Track into their own collection - eg Outbound. Put the Return route and track into their own separate collection - eg Return. Make all collections invisible except the one that you want. Follow the route with its instructions. But if the track becomes visible, it means that the route has changed. Follow the track and (eventually) it will recalculate.

Turning autorecalc off is no guarantee that a route will remain fixed. It will still recalculate on import if it feels the need, and i believe that road closures ( or incorrectly flagged closed roads) will cause a recalculation with no alert or option to prevent. In the case of your return route with absolutely nothing to fix it in place, the entire route will change.

If the route changes - ie the track becomes visible when the route goes a different way - follow the track. The route should recalculate from where you are to the next route point. When you get chance, reload the route and select closest entry point to restart it again.

Any gpx route can be made RUT free simply by using the Xt2 screen to make a copy and loading the copy instead of the original. But if it has come from the Tread app, that should not be an issue.

But really, people sending out routes for people to follow should have adequate (but not excessive) shaping points and via points. Via points should be placed in locations that everyone will definitely pass through. ie not at the start, but on the road after the start. Not at the coffee stop , but on the road before or after - somewhere that everyone will definitely pass through. I prefer after, with a shaping point to mark the stop itself. It makes it easy to restart the route when I accidentally stop the route while fiddling with the Zumo over coffee !! And really, they should be made available before the event. It is only the XT1 and XT2 that can obtain the route via BT from the app on your phone