Looking for the best start option to begin a planned route.

[FrankB]

@FrankB I will forward these workaround images to Garmin Support if necessary.

Very well. If I can help let me know.
Should you receive questions in German language, you don't have to translate them for me. I can read German.

I now only noticed 'Cafe Hubraum' Hubraum=displacement (for example in Cylinders) Is it a Bikers cafe?

Good luck, you'll probably need it.
Frank

[proofresistant]

I have a question for the experts with the old zumo XT (1) and CEP for (Track2Route / Track2Trip) routes.

In another forum, it is claimed that old zumo XT (1) CEP does not work on a (Track2Route / Track2Trip) route based on only a start and a end point.
It is assumed that at least one shaping or VIA point is required for CEP to find a nearby entry point and maintain the route as planned from there.
Without additional waypoints, the old zumo XT (1) with CEP supposedly calculates directly to the destination.
In other words, old zumo XT (1) CEP only finds waypoints but not "ghost points" (route-track-points).

Could this really be a problem for the old zumo XT (1)?
Does the old zumo XT (1) work so differently?
With my “Tread 2,” I simulated CEP on a (Track2Route / rack2Trip) route and it worked as planned.

[Peobody]

I recall CEP working fine on the XT(1) with a route that contains only start and end but just ran a simulation to be sure. I wonder how one would tell whether the point chosen as the CEP isn't the end point if the calculated route is the same as what Basecamp produced.

[FrankB]

It is true that CEP sometimes has a mind of its own. It can come up with something you did not expect.

But CEP does work for TripTrack routes. It does NOT need Via, or Shaping points. CEP finds the closest route to the route.
Consider also 'normal' route'. It can have only a start and end point. No Via or Shaping are required. That works also with CEP.

[proofresistant]

... I wonder how one would tell whether the point chosen as the CEP isn't the end point if the calculated route is the same as what Basecamp produced.

You would notice this if, for example, you used shaping in external BaceCamp (or other tools) to extend a route with many beautiful paths to the normally calculated route, then exported it as a track, and then turned this complex track into a route in zumo XT.
After CEP, if OK the complex path, or if not OK a more directly calculated route will then be the result.

It is true that CEP sometimes has a mind of its own. It can come up with something you did not expect.

We discussed this here recently, and you're absolutely right, of course.

But CEP does work for TripTrack routes. It does NOT need Via, or Shaping points. CEP finds the closest route to the route.
Consider also 'normal' route'. It can have only a start and end point. No Via or Shaping are required. That works also with CEP.

OK, with normal routes, this is less of a problem, as the route calculation is very similar.
But Track2Trip routes usually follow a sharpened route, and other German “ignoramuses” claim that this is fundamentally impossible.


Thanks for your feedbacks.
I think I need to get an old zumo XT (1) also to experiment with ;-.)

[proofresistant]

I have an update regarding the CEP issue, based on something I noticed today.

I had a route today and was standing just a few meters before the starting point of the route.

I was using a Tread 2, and my Wingman had a Zumo XT3; both were in the same spot, a few meters from the starting point, and both were following the same route.

My Tread 2 displayed the CEP issue with direct route guidance to the destination, while the zumo XT3 correctly identified the starting point at the beginning of the route.

At home, I tried to reproduce the issue but couldn’t find any error. Setting additional VIAs didn’t help either. (If I selected the start or end point instead of CEP, everything worked fine.)


Then I selected the maps and deactivated every other MAP (including Garmin TopoActive and EU Adventure Roads & Trails) except CN EUROPE NTU, and then CEP worked correctly

Edit:
One more note: As an alternative, I had also tried the problematic route with an OSM map, and the CEP start worked flawlessly with OSM as well.

[FrankB]

Then I selected the maps and deactivated every other MAP (including Garmin TopoActive and EU Adventure Roads & Trails) except CN EUROPE NTU, and then CEP worked correctly

That is how your wingman (me) has the maps setup.

[jfheath]

I observed odd behaviour with CEP when I first tested it with the XT1.

It was to do with:

1) whether or not U turns were allowed.

AND

2) Which way the Zumo thought that the motorcycle was facing when CEP was selected.

The zumo does not know which way it is pointing. It can only know which way your WERE pointing and can only update that opinion when it starts moving again. At some point the software changed - if the Zumo seemed to be staying in the same spot for a few readings (which it rgeisters about every second), then it assumes that the bike has stopped and it stops updating the position until it detects movement again.

But that doesn't fix anything 'cos the way you are facing when you stop is rarely the way you need to be facing to set off. If you are facing away from the direction of the route and you have U turns disabled - then it cannot calculate a sensible route. I had one situation where it plotted a route from me in Yorkshire to somewhere down in Bedfordshire - about 200 miles - where it found a roundabout and came back up to where I was - but facing in the correct direction for the rest of the route.

I did test this theory out at the time. I got some indication that this was the case, by deliberately walking the satnav in the wrong direction before turning it off. I can't call it proof because I couldn't repeat the issue 100% reliably. But the direction and U turns certainly had a part to play.

I never tested it again and I haven't got a clue whether that little issue was fixed or not. I just noted the problem and worked around it. I usually recommend that you allow the Zumos to suggest U turns, and if using CEP always check the preview map to make sure that its chosen route makes sense. If not, set off riding and pull in and try again.

I also got a feeling that if you are in direct line with the intended route, it has problems finding the route - but again, that might have been early software. All it has to do is find one of the ghost points that is closest. And that is just pure pythagoras on a thousand different points and find the smallest answer. That is the work of a moment for a computer ticking away at a few thousand million ticks per second.

Personally - I don't use CEP to start a route. I select the start point - but the start point is never plotted where I am going to get on the bike. It is plotted a mile or so up the road. If I am touring and have a hotel in town or city - which is usual because it allows us to wander around without having to take the bike with us - then the start point is somewhere beyond the ring road - beyond the city boundaries, on the road that I want to be on when I leave. That gives me the freedom to get some fuel, avoid inner city traffic and road works, get some picnic stuff.....and wherever I am the zumo will take me to the start.

Most routing problems that I used to come across with other people is that they have not passed through the start point. The magenta line is still plotted ahead and they are following it, but it keeps telling them to go back - if U turns are enabled. If they are not, it does not issue instructions - because although it looks like your are following the route on the map, in fact the route is heading back to the start point - cos you haven't passed through it yet.

Sometimes, especially in a city with tall buildings, the issue is that the satnav has not yet got an accurate fix on your position, and it needs a while to find out where you are. That is particuarly the case if you have just got off the ferry ! So if the start point is at the start the zumo will miss it and when it gets its loocation YOU will be on the route but the satnav will be trying to go in the opposite direction trying to reach the start point.

[proofresistant]

1) whether or not U turns were allowed.
AND
2) Which way the Zumo thought that the motorcycle was facing when CEP was selected.

The more I observe CEP’s behaviour, the more I come to the conclusion that CEP Issues can vary quite randomly.
I cannot identify the actual (real responsible) causes, and some of the workarounds even have to be applied in a way that seems completely counterintuitive.

I also suspect that there are some poorly placed points that the Garmin Alogtrytmen simply can’t seem to ‘get to like’.
Sometimes they’re points at junctions, sometimes they’re points where you have to turn around, or perhaps just points beside the road, or maybe even more than that.

• Sometimes recalculating Routes can help
  Sometimes it helps to avoid recalculating

• Sometimes it can help to avoid U-turns
  Sometimes it can help to allow U-turns

• Most of the time, it can help to convert closely following shapings into VIAs
  Sometimes this workaround has no effect either

What I have never observed so far is that the position arrow (view) direction plays a role. When CEP worked for me, it didn’t matter whether the position arrow symbol was pointing in the direction of the route or not. And when CEP didn’t work, it didn’t help if the arrow symbol was pointing to direction of the route.

One new finding, however, is that the selected map layers can also play a role, and that is what I wanted to share with you in my previous post. In this specific case, it was the ‘EU Adventure Roads & Trails’ layer; deactivated it led to a successful CEP in some of my casees

What will I try to do in future if I have a CEP problem, (assuming I can remember it at the time )

• Try to actually disable any map layers I don’t need. Or try an alternative map, e.g. OSM

• Recalculate the route

• Convert the next following shaping into a VIA point

• Recalculate with or without (depending on what was currently activated) avoidance of U-turns

• If ALL of this doesn't help, avoid CEP, go to the route and then navigate to the end, the next VIA, or even the start
  Avoid CEP, drive onto the route and then let it navigate to the end, the next VIA, or even the start point

Personally - I don't use CEP to start a route.

For me personally, CEP is one of my favourite route entry options.
Especially when I use existing routes again without having to plan a different meeting or starting point every time, or when I’ve had to make an unplanned detour during a trip to refuel my bike or me (have lunch) somewhere else.

Sometimes, especially in a city with tall buildings, the issue is that the satnav has not yet got an accurate fix on your position, and it needs a while to find out where you are. That is particuarly the case if you have just got off the ferry !

Yes, the starting point is often the starting address, and when you start driving, you don’t always wait for the sat-nav to finish locating your position.
Then I think, when using ferries, the sat-nav was usually switched off and wasn’t tracking the changing position. The further the new position is from the old one, the longer it takes. So it’s not uncommon for the sat-nav to be quite slow when you first start it up after arriving at a holiday destination.

[jfheath]

Totally agree with all of that.

A couple of points of info

1 If you change a via to a shaping (or vice versa) when navigating a route, the entire route is recalculated. You would expect it to calculate what it had before, but that doesn’t always happen - especially if the Zumo initially accepted the route without calculation.

2. I suspect that if you are driving an area for which two navigable maps are active at the same time, you will have issues in the overlapping areas. Suspicion only - I cannot prove it, and haven’t tried.

I do know for certain that if I have Uk maps from Garmin, as well as Uk maps from Open Source Maps - both ticked in MyMaps - then the route is likely to involve straight lines going across fields, cliffs, houses and oceans. Turn one off and it fixes the issue. I have only ever seen it happen with 2 navigable maps for the same area selected, but it is consistent. The conflicting maps don’t have to be removed from the device, just untick one of them in MyMaps. I used to switch between OSM and Garmin quite often - I like the detail on OSM maps but the ETAs are wildly inaccurate as they do not have speed limit info.