Mapsource and .GDB files on the Zumo XT2?

[Mapsource_fan]

I recently bought a Garmin XT2 (after owning 450, 550 and 665) and can't believe how frustrating it is to load routes created with Mapsource (Still the best option for creating detailed routes for Zumo in my opinion). Why can't Garmin simply let Mapsource connect to the XT2 or design a modern program that will? They are rapidly phasing out Basecamp so don't want to re-struggle trying to figure that terrible program out.

How are you supposed to design routes on a desktop PC and get them on the XT2 without all kinds of workarounds and conversions?
They are obviously steering everything toward the Tread app but there is no Tread app access on a desktop. Not happy with this aspect of the XT2, it's like going backwards

[sussamb]

Just a correction, Garmin aren't rapidly phasing out BaseCamp. Just like you can still download and install MapSource, which was discontinued over 10 years ago, you will be able to download and install BaseCamp for many years to come and it will still continue to work.

I've used BaseCamp since it came out, it's very easy to use once you forget MapSource and accept BaseCamp works differently. I certainly wouldn't go back to MapSource. Good tutorial here that will quickly bring you up to speed

https://www.newenglandriders.org/learn-basecamp/

[jfheath]

Welcome to the forum @Mapsource_fan

I remember all too clearly my first introduction to the Zumo 590. I had previously owned a Zumo 550 and then a Zumo 660 - which I loved. At the time we were told that we should be using Basecamp and not Mapsource - but then Garmin changed their minds when they started to develop Basecamp to cater for the new devices that had the Trip Planner App - the Zumo 590 at the time, but also the 595 XT and XT2

I hated the 590 and was all for chucking it at the wall. Garmin's documentation was poor for what I was expecting. Having hated BAsecamp in its first incarnation, it was greatly improved for the arrival of the 590. But the Zumo came with poor documentation.

So I buckled down and wrote a document. It was aimed at the 590 and Basecamp but much of it still applies to the later 595, XT and now the XT2.
It details the basic components of a route - the stuff that you have to know before any of what BAsecamp does can possibly make sense.
You have to forget how you prepared routes for your Zumo 665 with Mapsource and recognise that routes for the 590, 595, XT1 and XT2 are different.

The document can be downloaded from the first post in this thread: viewtopic.php?t=521
The first two sections are still relevant for the XT2. Most of the third section applies, but the location of the various features is different on the XT2.

At the end of section 3 (P28) there is a link to a play list where I use Basecamp to put together a route for the 590. I still use the same technique for my XT2. This has about 12 videos which go through each stage of creating a route using Basecamp.

The link below is to a later set of videos where I attempted to cover the same BC basics in just 5 videos - and keeping each one to less than 3 minutes - and is probably better at giving an overview of using BC for the XT2.

viewtopic.php?t=2057

The New England Rider document is good - but different people learn in different ways and for me, it doesn't help me to learn. I tried it, but it only made sense to me once I had already found out !! Other people find it extrememly useful.

But before you can learn anything - you need to get rid of what you know from MapSource - and the pdf file from the first link above will give you that background information.

Basecamp reports incompatability issues with the XT2. That is true - but that is only because the XT2 has features that Basecamp cannot possibly know about - eg 4 levels of adventurous routing, Moto popular routes, Michelin Scenic Roads. For creating a route that can be sent to the Zumo, I still regard it as the best tool. I always use Basecamp to create gpx files of my routes to send to the XT2.

In my opinion - the XT2 works best WITHOUT Tread being fully installed. I have Tread running on my phone, but I have not allowed the XT2 to store data or to synchronise. That gives me access to traffic and weather data and up ahead places, like fuel, cafes while on the move.

If you have already set it up, then to remove it you have to perform a system reset of the XT2 and uninstall Tread from your phone. You can then pair them again - but do not be tempted to store data or synchronise. You get the option AFTER you have signed into your Garmin Account.

The XT2 (and the XT and 595) have a few routing issues which can be easily resolved. But that is for later.
I am referring to making a copy of the route using the XT2 screen and navigating using that
Or - using TripManager to transfer the route to the XT2
Simple solution, dramatic improvement in routing behaviour.

[Oop North John]

My jump from Mapsource to Basecamp wasn't without any tears, but now I'm fairly confident with it and understand the limitations and quirks of it.

The XT2 isn't officially supported by Basecamp but still i plan 99% of my routes and 100% of waypoints in it, and then transfer it to my XT2.

I personally accept Tread, as it means I can adapt routes if away without my laptop. But, as I said earlier 99% of my routes were planned in Basecamp. Especially as Tread has the faulty faster roads algorithm that the XT2 has, so there's less surprises if you review the route in Tread.

Unlike the older GPSRS eg 590, there's so many ways to do things that there's n+1 ways now of skinning the cat!

[Mapsource_fan]

Thank You so much for the detailed reply! jfheath. I will investigate these suggestions and report back! If you remember, In Mapsouce, when creating a route you simply placed a "via point" at an intersection if you wanted no announcement on it and not in the intersection if you did. I was still hoping to use Mapsource to create the routes and then convert them into .gpx files. (Why the XT2 won't support .gdb files is disappointing)

Yesterday I created a sample short route and made two copies near my home with a mix of waypoints (gas stations, businesses etc.) and "shaping points" with turns thru neighborhood streets (Which I assumed were like via points but now realize they're not) I loaded one copy directly into my XT2 via usb and desktop and then that route was soon missing all of the shaping points and the route was totally different than I plotted and just routing me direct between waypoints

The second copy I uploaded to the Tread app. This route on my XT2 at least guided me as I intended, but all of my via points were now waypoints with audible announcements. Mehh Better, but not ideal. I don't know how Garmin got this correct without issues back in 2007 on the Zumo 450 and it is a problem now.

I'll disable the Tread app as you suggest but not looking forward to erasing all the work I put on the Zumo. Garmin has a real oversight here if we have to workarounds to maintain our intended routes and waypoint announcements going off against the wishes of the rider.

[jfheath]

Thanks for the feedback.

Two corrections - which might be causing you some confusion.

Gdb files are database files used by Garmin Basecamp to store all of the data - waypoints, routes, tracks, lists, list folders, categories etc etc that are stored in Basecamp. I have about 20 of these - I start a new one each year. It is not in a readable format, and you would not send a gdb file to a Zumo. I am not aware that the XT2 uses a gdb file to store its data - it may use an SQL type database structure, but its not something that I have ever bothered to delve into.
Gpx is the format used to transfer tracks, data, routepoints, waypoints between different devices - satnavs, basecamp, other mapping software.

The other is understanding what a waypoint is. A waypoint is not a point in a route. It is therefore not a via point or a shaping point or even a route point. It is a location which you have created and saved to mark a particular place on the map. With it, you might have stored a special icon, additional information such as an address, post code, telephone number, elevation .....

In Basecamp you can add one of your saved waypoints into a route, or you can build a route from a few of your saved Waypoints.
But the zumo itself then has two points in the route file. A waypoint with its coordinates and additional information, and a via point from the lat / long coordinates of the waypoint. It plots them both in the same position. You can make the via point into a shaping point if you wish. Up until the XT2, the zumos kept the route point (via/shaping) in exactly the same position as the waypoint. But the XT2 doesn't. It may move the Via point slightly. It will likely move a shaping point sometimes to a different road - significantly altering the route. You then end up with the original waypoint plotted in its original position, but it is now not necessarily on the route.


So Waypoint is not a via point
Waypoint is not a shaping point
A route does not have waypoints in it - it has start, finish, vias and shaping points.

[Mapsource_fan]

"Gdb files are database files used by Garmin Basecamp to store all of the data - waypoints, routes, tracks, lists, list folders, categories etc etc that are stored in Basecamp. I have about 20 of these - I start a new one each year. It is not in a readable format, and you would not send a gdb file to a Zumo. I am not aware that the XT2 uses a gdb file to store its data"

On my 450,550 and 665 I saved my route files to the default .gdb file in the Mapsource program and never changed anything with the file when connecting with the older Zumo's. I now have to convert those files transfer to the SD card or to load on to the tread App. Perhaps the old Zumo's converted the files to .gpx?

"You can make the via point into a shaping point if you wish. Up until the XT2, the zumos kept the route point (via/shaping) in exactly the same position as the waypoint. But the XT2 doesn't. It may move the Via point slightly. It will likely move a shaping point sometimes to a different road - significantly altering the route. You then end up with the original waypoint plotted in its original position, but it is now not necessarily on the route."

This is what was confusing me and baffles me why Garmin would do such a thing. I'm considering sending this XT2 back because of this and finding an older or alternative unit with bluetooth for music. I'll try your fix first however

[Mapsource_fan]

In my opinion - the XT2 works best WITHOUT Tread being fully installed. I have Tread running on my phone, but I have not allowed the XT2 to store data or to synchronized. That gives me access to traffic and weather data and up ahead places, like fuel, cafes while on the move.

If you have already set it up, then to remove it you have to perform a system reset of the XT2 and uninstall Tread from your phone. You can then pair them again - but do not be tempted to store data or synchronize. You get the option AFTER you have signed into your Garmin Account.

Ok,I have finally calmed down after my XT2 frustrations and disconnected the Tread app from synchronizing with the Zumo and now all is well! The shape points remained where I put them were silent and didn't turn into audible "flags" (whatever the terminology for these is) and the route did navigate as I designed it. I'm not sure how long that would have taken me to figure out on my own, so thank you so much jfheath for the reply and solution!

Garmin really needs have an update to have an option of not modifying the routes with the Tread app synch because the idea of designing a route on your phone and even sharing it with friends is a good one, but that is now disabled on my phone because it wants to modify my routes with no opt out option. What were they thinking?

[jfheath]

Ok,I have finally calmed down after my XT2 frustrations and disconnected the Tread app from synchronizing with the Zumo and now all is well! The shape points remained where I put them were silent and didn't turn into audible "flags" (whatever the terminology for these is) and the route did navigate as I designed it. I'm not sure how long that would have taken me to figure out on my own, so thank you so much jfheath for the reply and solution!

Apologies - I edited you post to put the quoted bit in the quote box !!

Calmed down after only two hours? That is very impressive. But 2:25 in the morning, yeah OK that is being quite worked up about it.

You are not alone - Garmin know about it, have the evidence, claim it is still with the development team. But there is no evidence that anything that has been reported to them is fixed as yet. But it is less than two years, so we have to give them a bit of time. I doubt that they will ever fix it. Indications from previous issues suggest that unless they get a massive number of complaints they have our money and the fix may be included in the next model. Tiphaine from techical support indicated that this might be the case with some issues that I reported with the XT1. In fact the moving point issue (when changing a via to a shaping points on the Zumo itself), was first seen by me on the Zumo 595. It got worse with the XT and it is still there with the the XT2 and the Tread app.

Garmin really needs have an update to have an option of not modifying the routes with the Tread app synch because the idea of designing a route on your phone and even sharing it with friends is a good one, but that is now disabled on my phone because it wants to modify my routes with no opt out option. What were they thinking?

Agree. You can have tread installed on your phone, but still prevent it from synching. I like the weather, traffic and up ahead features. These work with Tread active onthe phone, but not allowed to synch.

Garmin seem to have got wind of this and have put a couple of menu options - presumably to lure you into enabling synch. So quick to enable, but requires a complete system reset and reinstall of Tread software on the phone to disable.

The XT2 has some really bad navigation habits - which I suggest you find out about. The behaviour of the route changes dramatically in certain situations, and it gets bogged down - seemingly inisting that you go back and take the route that it has calculated ***.

I sent evidence to Garmin showing it ignoring the obvious route to the next via point a mile ahead, and instead taking me back 14 miles to where I left the route and then another 15 miles to reach the same via point. Ok if you know what it is doing, a complete disaster if you are relying 100% on the satnav. I also have evidence of it completely removing shaping points and via points from your carefully planned route - this happens again if you leave the plotted route in certain situations.

In fact it isn't trying to get you to go back to the place where you deviated from the route - not directly anyway. Each time you ignore an instruction it has to calculate a new route - but instead of calculating to the next route point, it simply tags a bit of new route onto where you left its last calculated route - ie to where it last asked you to turn back. It is dropping a trail of breadcrumbs. Each time you ignore an instruction it gets you to go back to the last breadcrumb, and then the previous one. But it NEVER does this with a route that has been created and saved on the XT2 itself. I only does it with routes imported from GPX files. And that discovery was crucial to finding a fix.

But we have fixes for this behaviour.

One is to use TripManager

This is a very impressive bit of software from @FrankB of this forum - it runs on Windows and is used to transfer the route to the Zumo, rather than importing the route from a GPX file form (say) Basecamp, MyRouteApp or a File manager. It completely by-passes the Zumos' import processes which seem to be where most of the damage is done. Instead it builds the necessary .trip files itself. It sounds simple - and the idea is simple - eg if you want to send someone your route and have it behave exactly as it does on your XT2, send them the .trip file. The complexities of getting a workable trip file form a gpx file are considerable. FrankB's software does an incredible job which makes it straight forward and can do so so much more behind the scenes to make sure that your trip file is created 'properly'.

The other method is to use a feature that is on the XT2 itself.

Load the route and then select the Spanner Option to Copy the route. Give it a slightly different name (I put an @ symbol in front of the original name - to indicate it is the copied version). Then abandon the current route and and load the copied one.) This makes the XT2 think that the route has been created on the XT2 itself rather than imported from a GPX file. It behaves perfectly in all of the tests that I have carried out to try to provoke the same bad behaviour, it has never misbehaved. Providing it isn't allowed to synchronise with the Tread App.

These have not been just - 'lets try it and see what happens' tests. They are proper controlled experiments. A few defined routes tested multiple times with the same routes loaded / imported in different ways, and ridden many times and changing one behaviour each time. And then analyisng the screen shots and the track logs and the videos. I start off by skipping a route point near to the start. This alway makes changes to the route, but for some routes the subsequent behaviour also changes. Later on, I then ignore the route and take a different (and better way). This provokes RUT behaviour. Every time for imported routes. Never for 'Saved' routes. Never for routes created by TripManager. The same sequence is then repeated on different roads where the RUT behaviour can be provoked - with the same results.