Shaping points enigma

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jfheath
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Re: Shaping points enigma

Post by jfheath »

jcinoz wrote:
22 Aug 2020 02:44
Thanks so much for chiming in again @jfheath. You have already helped me enormously with your document which, although I haven’t yet reached the end, has given me enough insight to plan a few local routes in order to confirm expected behaviours before I plan the next major route in earnest. I’m particularly cognisant now of the crucial differences between via and shaping points and how to use them to their best effect, and have specifically built different scenarios around them into my test routes. Hopefully I will get some spare time this weekend to try these test routes out!
Most welcome. It sounds that like me you are determined to get on top of this thing ! I'm having similar issues with the XT at the moment as some of the features from the 590 have been modified in their behaviour. It is a pain. At present I am using my 590 with 595 software AND the XT side by side. I don't yet trsut my understanding of the XT.
jcinoz wrote:
22 Aug 2020 02:44
And thanks especially for clarifying the expected behaviour when the unit powers up again after being off. I didn’t realise I could click the view map button and my route would still be available. I thought the only choice was to choose the next via point and potentially lose my original route to that via point.
It was only when I was testing whether it retained the route after being turned completely off (I rarely turn mine off), that I realised that the home screen did not actually gve any indication that there is a route loaded - apart from the fact that the (X) Stop button is not greyed out if there is a route currently active.
jcinoz wrote:
22 Aug 2020 02:44
Also you seem to be saying that I can choose a previous via point but continue from where I am on the original route, somehow choosing to skip the via point I have just asked to be taken to? I will definitely test that myself but do you expect that after I start riding, I will receive a prompt to skip the via point I asked to be taken to? That would definitely allay the fears I have about making stops along the route, scheduled or otherwise.
I prefer to Skip manually. On the 595 this is hidden under Spanner (Bot Right) -> Change Route. You have a choice of Skip Next Shaping Point or SKip next Destination (by which it means Via Point). Only one of those will be the next one in the list - you don't always know which one it is - but on this occasion, you do. You chose to select the last Via Point as your next destination when you started the route so any point (shaping or via) will have been removed from the active route. The next point is the Via Point.

So if you skip that before setting off, the satnav will still have a list of Shaping points to follow in sequence. It will still try to get you to the next one in the list - even if that is behind you. So you have to either skip the shaping points manually - however many there are behind you, or ignore the instruction and make your own way to the magenta line.

You can view the complete route map at any time - press the bar across the middle of the top part of the screen, press the 3-bar menu at the top right, and select 'Map'. This will show the magenta line, your current position and orange flag Via Points and any blue circle shaping point.
Count up how many are behind you, and that is how many times you have to select Skip.

Usually, if you go off route, it is only for a few miles, so rejoining the magenta line and ignoring attempts by the satnva to take you back to shaping point you have already passed, is not such a big deal. So although it may be taking you to a sequence of 3 or 4 shaping points that are behind you, as soon as you get onto the original magenta line, it will ignore those and navigate you forward from there.

Eg a route V3 - S1 - S2 - S3 - S4 - S5 - S6 - S7 - V4 (2 Via Points and 7 shaping points in between.)

You have passed V6 and S1, S2, S3 - and have then gone off route - into a village for coffee perhaps. In doing so, you have missed S4 completely, so rejoining the route at S5 would be ideal.
Start the route, select V3 as the next destination and then skip V3. The satnav will plot a route back to S1. If you skip that it will plot a route to S2 and so on.
However, if having Skipped V3, you ignore all instructions from the satnav to head you in the wrong direction, and make your own way to the magenta line going towards S5, the satnav will continue navigation to S5, S6, S7 and V4.

(If you had auto recalc turned off, the stanav ill probably stop nagging when you ignore its instructions, but will spring back into life as soon as you hit the original magenta route.


However - there is another way which you might find easier. When you load the route, before you have started navigating it, you get a list of all of the blue circle shaping points and all of the flag Via Points. Scroll down the list and find the first shaping point that is ahead of your current position. Tap the blue circle and it will change it into a Via Point. It will recalculate the route, scroll back up to the top and select 'Go!' - the new via point will be in your list of 'Next Destinations'. Choose that and the satnav will navigate you from where you are now and start the route from there.

But that little trick comes with a very serious health warning for anyone watching with a 595 or an XT:

Do not, under any circumstances, try to change a Via Point into a Shaping Point. If you do, then stop the route, Go to trip planner and delete the trip.
Trip Planner->Spanner->Delete Trips->Select the trip to be deleted. (don't worry about that - it sounds disastrous).

Then import it again: Trip Planner->Import->(select the trip)->Import.

The reason for this is that there is quite a serious software malfunction, which I have reported and which is being investigated, but as of version 4.60 has not yet been fixed. That is, if you change a shaping point into a Via Point, the software is likely to rename it and relocate it. In my tests it has placed it somewhere that is not on the original route. It doesn't do this on the 590, but it does on the 595 and the XT. So far changing a shaping point into a Via Point doesn't present any issues.

jcinoz wrote:
22 Aug 2020 02:44
I can see that with this bag of tricks there should be ways and means to largely stay on the planned route but, for the record, I’ve raised a support request with Garmin to have an option to just start or follow the existing route without having to navigate to a via point first. You never know...
Interesting you should say that. The Zumo XT has a feature in that list entitled 'Closest Entry Point' which sounds brilliant - except at first, it didn't work. Two generations of software later, they had a version which was superb - it would find the place on the magenta line closest to your current position, take you to that (not to a via or shaping point) and then navigate from there. It was brilliant. That was version 2.50 of the software. We are now on 2.90 and at some point since 2.50 it changed. It now simply finds the closest Via point to where you are and navigates to that. It is an automated 'Choose your next destination' and it will only select Via Points. This makes a very short ride if you have a circular route planned. The end point is usually the closest Via Point to your current position !

Needless to say, I have lodged that as a fault. Annoying thing is that it seemed to be working brilliantly.

Personally, I doubt that they will fix the 595 software now. When the 595 came out there were no more software fixes for the 590.

sussamb
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Re: Shaping points enigma

Post by sussamb »

Just for everyone's information the issue with the moving of the location when changing a shaping point into a via point is pretty much universal as far as I know and occurs with many Garmin devices, not just the 590/595. Even happens on my DriveSmart 50.

Hopefully Garmin will resolve this in a software update but I'm not holding my breath.

jfheath
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Re: Shaping points enigma

Post by jfheath »

Thanks @Sussamb

The problem I described only happens when changing a Via Point into a Shaping Point. Not Vice Versa. So there are no issues in what I was describing in my last post - ie on the 595, changing a Shaping point into a Via Point so that it appears in the list of Next Destinations. The 595 will do this perfectly OK. But if you change it back again or accidentally tap a Via Point - then that Via Point will possibly be relocated. (I say 'possibly', because I cannot say for certain that it happenes every time. But it has happened every time that I have tested it.)

And the issue is not entirely universal - as my 590 does not do it at all - which is why I started a thread when I first discovered the issue for myself.

According to my tests:
It does not happen on the Zumo 590.
It happens on the 595 and the XT when changing a Via Point to a Shaping Point.
It doesn't happen on either the XT, 595 or 590 when changing a shaping point to a Via Point

The fault seems to be that it relocates the point to a location which would ensure the route takes the fastest route between the two adjacent points. But that is just observation from half a dozen similar tests. It also seems to take a new name - I guess this is from some internal database.

I reported it to Garmin, had many exchanges with them by phone and by email. Each time they seemed to want to clarify what the problem was. I sent them screen shots of 3 short 3 point routes. They didn't seem to know about the problem - either that or they were very good at hiding the fact. The last I heard was that It certainly sounded like a software fault, and that it had been referred to the development team to sort out.

It does it on the 595 and XT whether or not the route was created on the Zumo or transferred from Basecamp, and whether or not the point was first created as a Waypoint in Basecamp. (Creating a Waypoint in Basecamp usually guarantees that the Zumo does not change the name of the route point when it receives it. But not in this case.)

The name seems to come from an internal database. I don't know which one, but the name it uses is not something that is sent from Basecamp. I have checked the file. I can imagine a different scenario where - say if someone looked up an address to get a postcode and someone then used the postcode to obtain the address. The obtained address is not likely to be the same as the original.

I note that there seem to be some different location databases on the 595 and XT.
Last edited by jfheath on 23 Aug 2020 07:01, edited 2 times in total.

sussamb
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Re: Shaping points enigma

Post by sussamb »

Sorry, my error, it's the way around you describe. I'm sure you're correct and there will be some devices where it doesn't happen, interesting that your 590 doesn't do it but the 595 does.

jcinoz
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Re: Shaping points enigma

Post by jcinoz »

Thanks once again @jfheath. As usual your information is clear, detailed and easy to understand. I can see situations where each of your proposed methods for restarting/rejoining a route would be appropriate. In any case they both sound doable. I’m off now to start my testing.

It sounds like v2.50 of the XT software was similar to the experience I was used to with the 660. Except with the 660 I didn’t need to provide any inputs at all. If you ever departed from the original route it would just automatically take you to the “closest entry point”. So I totally get your frustration with the change in behaviour with newer versions!

As you intimated I suspect it’s too much to expect a software update for the 595 now but perhaps it will give some more weight to restoring the behaviour in the XT. One thing I know is that if you don’t ask you don’t get!

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